Here is Kirrily's story:
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When I first heard of Ronald Weinland, my first thought was ‘who is this Pentecostal nutcase calling himself one of the witnesses of Revelation?’ However, I soon discovered that he was from one of the Churches of God. I knew I at least had to listen to what he had to say.
Previous to this, I had been part of Garner Ted Armstrong’s Intercontinental COG – and believed that when the Witnesses did come on the scene, that they would be from ONE of the COG’s (whichever the true one ended up being) – I believed this wholeheartedly.
After reading both of Ron's books, I was entirely convinced that indeed the end was near, and that it would happen as he stated. (Mind you, this is the third time in my 36 years of life I believed ‘the end was nigh’- which displays a certain pattern in my life, don’t you think!)
So, I contacted the Church of God - PKG and eventually was baptized (for the second time in a COG). The picture below was taken on the Gold Coast here in Australia the day I was baptized, on 12 January '08. From left to right are Wayne Matthews, another member, my mother, my husband, myself, Laura, Chris, and Ron.
Being part of PKG was great – enjoying the holy days, preparing for the tribulation (bulk food and supply purchases, storage, water provisions, warm clothes for nuclear winter etc, etc, etc) and being with a few like-minded people.
During the lead up to the first timeline's blowing of the first trumpet on 17 April 2008, I remember feeling physically sick as I believed it would be announced that the USA had been nuked when I turned on the TV. I had even convinced my husband to cut our holiday short so we could be at home when all of this started.
I remember feeling confused and angry on the day of 17/4/08 when nothing happened – what on earth was going on? Why had nothing happened as Ron had said? Was he false?
“No – he CAN’T be” I said to myself.
The remainder of this is from my recollection of events. My memory has never been fantastic (I’m only 36, I know), but I believe this is relatively accurate.
After the 17th of April, Ron then said that the damage of the first trumpet would be a process of destruction over a period of 45-90 days and then the second trumpet would be blown. Every day I was glued to the news, feeling sick to the stomach.
It was sometime after this (I do not remember the timeframe) that Ron admitted (somewhat) that he has ‘misunderstood’ and was ‘shown’ another truth which he would reveal on the Last Great Day of the Feast of '08. [Note: This happened June 21, 2008. Mike (DDTFA)]
Turns out we did not have to wait that long, as long before the Feast of '08 he delivered his 50th Truth being that Christ's return would be on Pentecost 2012. The 50th truth made perfect sense to me, given Ron's explanation of the timing. [Note: Ronnie announced the 50th "truth" and new timeline the following Saturday, June 28, 2008]
At this time my mother left PKG. However, I stayed – believing my mother had not been permitted to ‘see’ this new truth by God.
Ron told us to question ourselves, question our own faith – and how terrible it was that we probably were feeling very stupid in front of our loved ones, our family, when the things we had been warning them about did not eventuate. In other words, he turned his own failure back on us. Instead of admitting his error, he had us focus on our own shortcomings.
I must say, I did feel stupid – but not only for the obvious reasons. You see, those of us who believed in God’s ‘Truths’ wanted God to call our families so badly. Our husbands/wives/brothers/mothers/fathers and friends would begin to keep the Sabbath, the Holy Days, etc – then we would know that they too will see the millennium and be with us! How joyous that would have been.
If we warned them, and told them what was going to take place, who Ron was, etc – and those things DID HAPPEN, then God could use that to reveal His truths and they would begin to ‘SEE’ as God desired them to in His time.
When the failure of Ron’s first timeline occurred, I knew that my friends and family would never believe anything I had to say in this regard again. They already hated that I did not keep Christmas and would go away to a stupid Feast every year – to them the failure of Ron was just another confirmation of ALL I believed was false – including other doctrines such as the Sabbath.
As I kept believing Ron, it was very hard on my marriage (second marriage), and my friends could just not understand why I kept believing in someone who said ‘If it does not happen EXACTLY as is stated in my books, I will declare myself a false prophet’ – yet didn’t.
I did as I was told by Ron, and repented from my VERY bad attitude on how I felt with the failure of the first timeline, and continued with PKG.
I no longer watched the news. I no longer searched for items such as earthquake results – as I did not want to ‘ruin’ my faith with evidence that no escalation whatsoever was occurring except for financial ‘thunder’. But being in the financial services industry, what Ron had stated is no news to me as many of my peers believe we are headed for an unprecedented depression globally in the next year or two.
Interestingly, Wayne would often send news items to us via email – an earthquake here, fires there, etc etc. I did not even read them, since to me they were just normal newsworthy events – nothing spectacular. Again, I did not want to ‘ruin’ my faith and admit that no escalation was occurring. It was easier to bury my head in the sand and concentrate on ‘spiritual’ matters.
Coming up now to December '08 – and ‘here we go again’. What would the first trumpet be? What destructive events would take place?
I recall that during the Feast of '08 Laura herself directly said to me that she believed by Jan '09 that things would be ‘really bad’. She told me that she had purchased things on interest free, no payments for 3 years, and that we should do the same – it would never have to be paid back after all. She did say that we should do it only if we could afford to pay for it anyway – but this attitude seemed wrong to me somehow. I ignored my feelings. [Note: This past Saturday, Weinland expressed regret for making purchases that he unexpectedly has to pay for. Mike(DDTFA)]
Well, December came and went, Jan '09 saw a new US president take office, and Ron tossed the second 45-90 day timeline for nuclear explosions out the window.
This was too much. Too much had changed, and Ron seemed to be losing it. Too much was going against what his two books had stated. Just one example: the second witness would not be revealed until the beginning of the 3 ½ year period. Well, she was revealed to the world LONG before the beginning of Ron’s second tribulation. That is just ONE falsity in Ron’s books. I will let the people who can be bothered outline the rest.
Leaving PKG was one of the hardest things in my life I have had to do. I truly loved the people I was with – Wayne and Chris were truly like my spiritual mum and dad, Nathan and Sharna were truly like brothers and sisters. To this day, I love and miss them – and know that in 2012 when Jesus does not return – that they will speak to me again (unless a third timeline comes in).
I have gone through many different emotions since leaving, and I am still. I was not angry – at first, that came later. There are so many things now that I question.
The main thing I find alarming, is my own nature – my own disposition to believing that ‘the end is nigh’. This could be for a number of reasons, and I will not bore you by listing them here.
The battle is with myself – what do I do now? I do still believe the truths that I first learned with Garner Ted – the Sabbath, Holy Days, the false traditional Christianity belief system etc. These truths I learned with GTA and through PKG I will always believe. But do I have the strength to APPLY and OBEY these ‘truths’ with no organisation to follow, to lead me? I do not know, to be honest.
After all, I believed God led me to GTA's group – but they were false. I am not even going to mention the additional times I thought God had 'led' me into a myriad of different pentecostal churches – 'Rapture next 2 years', 'Armageddon very close' etc etc – you get the picture. I then believed that God led me to PKG – but they were false. How would I trust for myself that God was leading me ANYWHERE now? How could I?
I believe that God calls people – and it is only those he calls that can see the ‘truth’ – I thought I was one of them. The only conclusion I can come to, is that God does NOT want me to see, and that I am NOT called. What other explanation is there?
I believed Barry Smith (Pentecostal – when I was one in those days!) that the Rapture would be in 2000. I believed GTA – the end was near. I believed Ron – Jesus would be back in 2011. And I believed Ron again when he said Jesus would be back in 2012.
How could I believe anyone again? Really….. HOW?
I believe Ron is sincere – and if he had admitted he was false the first time, or even the second time – that would have been OK by me – after all, we are all human. But he won’t admit that he is false – therefore to me, he is both dangerous and a joke. He deserves to be mocked, as promises he himself made with words through his own lips were not kept.
As for his followers, I no longer have any sympathy for them. Their pride and desire to be RIGHT alone is what is keeping them there. I myself stayed as long as I did for those reasons – it wasn’t until I left that I admitted it to myself.
The truly sick thing about all this, is Ron’s dealings with his ‘mockers’. You see, Ron teaches that God calls – God is the one who lets people ‘see’. Take Mike from DDTFA for example.
Ron would teach that Mike does not ‘see’ as God has not ‘called’ him. Mike is blind, he does not understand. Ron would teach that someone like Mike would die during the tribulation, and be resurrected after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and be permitted to live another lifetime to be given a chance to see God’s ways, repent, and live. Mike would then be GIVEN the ‘truths’ so he could choose to obey.
The disciples once asked Jesus ‘why do you talk to them in parables’ and Jesus’ replied in essence ‘so they don’t understand’.
During his murder, Jesus said ‘Forgive them Father, for they do not understand’.
Instead of Ron saying to God of Mike ‘Forgive him Father, he does not know what he does’ – Ron instead curses him to die slowly (then quickly) from the inside. That is plain wrong. I could understand, given what Revelation says about the witnesses ‘powers’ - for example, cursing the people who KNEW THEY WERE THE WITNESSES, AND BELIEVED THEY WERE THE WITNESSES and wanted to cause them harm BECAUSE they were the Witnesses. But not someone who was ‘blind to the truth’ and did not believe they were the witnesses.
After all, Ron said that was the purpose of the 2 books – they were not addressed to believers but rather were to reveal to the WORLD (people like Mike for example) that Ron indeed is a Witness, a Prophet. I won’t speak for Mike, but I believe that if everything had indeed occurred as Ron said they would, that Mike would have believed that Ron was who he said he was!
When you write something, and it does NOT occur, and you say that you will admit it if you are wrong – AND YOU DO NONE OF THIS – you deserve to be mocked – simple. Ron said a great number of things, time and time again, that have NOT eventuated. Yet he still carries on with his ‘thing’.
To people out there who continue to believe – because you ‘see the truth’ – well, good on you – go for it. You deserve no respect, no sympathy – you are fools following a greater fool. Don’t come crying to me in 2012. You yourselves are causing great pain, great anguish – just ask yourselves the damage these ‘witnesses’ are doing. A number of people will now not believe the REAL witnesses when they turn up, because of the damage Ron has done.
God will deal with Ron in His time.
In the meantime, I have learned a great deal about myself during this painful process. I still have a lot more to learn.
Yes – I am angry. Yes, I am lost.
I know Ron is false – by his own lips, I know he is false. Why won’t he quit? I no longer care.
If I can help anyone in the same boat as me, or prevent others from going to where I did – I will. Other than that, I really don’t care anymore about Ron and his delusions, and his deluded followers.
I never listened to another one of Ron's sermon after Jan '09, and I will never listen to another.
As for the ‘truths’ (ie. Sabbath, Holy Days etc) – I will always believe them. As for believing someone else again – well, God would REALLY have to help me. It would take A LOT to go down this path again.
I continue to watch and wait – but more importantly, I am now living my life again.
Mike, thank you for your blog, and thank you for the time you have spent privately letting me vent and work through things. I have never met you, but you have truly acted as a friend who has simply listened, and been a shoulder to cry on. It has meant so much to me.
Thank you.
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Kirrily, you're welcome. I'm glad you've made your escape and that that I was able to help in some small way. And thank you for sharing your story.
Relating to what you said about Laura's financial advice, here's what Ron had to say about his financial dealings in his last sermon. (I wonder this statement survived Jeremy's editing session.)
Our finances generally are at the edge. Our credit card. We may
have one there. But we may be maxed out. Especially for many of us right now because of where we thought we were in a moment in time. And we made some choices there. And all of us have ... There are things I purchased I wish I hadn't purchased now. I thought we had a few months here and we're going to be in this and it's really not going to matter too much. And I would have made some different decisions. But I'm in it now. And some people had situations now where that's put them in a horrible situation. And that's the way it is. But we all learn from it. We can all grow from it Every one of us. And grow in some wisdom there.
I wish more would learn from this. Learn to stop listening to false prophets like Ronald Weinland. Grow in wisdom and test a teacher before blindly accepting what he has to say.
I wonder if Weinland really acted on his prophecies and made purchases expecting that he wouldn't have to pay for them. Or if he's just saying that he did so as to deflect the wrath of his followers who did. Either way, it says something about the man.
107 comments:
Ol high flyging, vacation taking, speaking tour taking, large house buying, tith taking Weinland takes the money of those with "maxed out credit cards" to pay his mortgage, and his car payments and his flights and his hotel stays, and his meals and his...
Suggest the many break those pitchers, suggest the many pay those tithes and 2nd tithes and 3rd tithes etc... and suggest they may take out loans on thier homes because there will not be an IRS in 2009 and cash in those 401K's because there will not be a retirement... all the time taking all that money and paying his own bills and his flight costs, and his book costs, and stuffing his Swiss bank accounts and padding his retirement nest egg...
I keep forgetting, what are them there penalties for teaching the Lords will falsely again and serving oneself above ones flock?
Sad... :-(
What these false prophets do is convince their followers to take their eyes off God and put their trust in them. They cleverly disguise belief in their teachings as having faith in God. That's not so. You don't need to follow a man or an organization to have faith. If someone says they have special knowledge that no other church has- run- run for your life, because, after all, that is what they want from you- your life.
Prophecy and end-of-world mentality is nothing short of an addiction. You were addicted to it, just as I was addicted to it in the WCG 20 years ago. It took a lot for me to understand what value the Bible held outside of prophecy. Now I don't even bother with prophecy because 1) it is not the central focus of the Bible, and 2) no man can know the day or the hour- so I don't worry. I am more likely to die of natural causes than a nuclear blast. Death and suffering are not my enemy.
I believe and hope that Ron's church implodes in the next few months from people like you exiting faster than he can reel them in to his net. He needs to be left penniless and marked as the heretic that he is. He is not a prophet, he is not a witness, his message is pure fantasy and deception.
KIRRILY,
1 JOHN 2:27 backs up what Mark just said very well.
If Christ is in you, you do not need to follow any man. Stay in His word and you will be fine.
Kirrily, beliefs aside I read your poem when it was first posted. Excellent writing! Do you write a lot or was this poem as good as it was because of your experiences? I'm just curious, and I do think you're a great writer. You should write poetry more often if you don't already. My last piece of advice, stay open-minded, calm, cool, collected, and live. I feel bad for you. Living in The End mode from the beginning can't be easy. I do wish you the best, physically and spiritually.
Kirrily,
Your story is a testimony to how powerful religious deception can be, and the grip it can have on people.
I wish I knew what the antidote was, that would enable one to break its power over people.
Thankfully there are websites and blogs, like this one, where experiences and learning can be shared for healing, and hopefully to help others by exposing those who would impose that kind of deception on people.
I wish my mom would read this. She's been a blind follower of Weinland since 2003.
She wholly expected the first timeline to go bust so it would (in her words) "get rid of the unfaithful". She totally takes any changes in stride, and is quick to defend Weinland and be condescending about my "lack of understanding" and "blindness to the truth". When she said that my pastor and father-in-law (a UCG elder) would be cast into the Lake of Fire, needless to say, I was mad (to put it lightly). She is in Kirrily's boat, but unlike Kirrily, she cannot think for herself. She's too invested, she can't afford to be wrong. She said so herself "If Weinland is wrong, then there must be no God." Weinland is so so wrong, and I don't think anything short of Weinland's death would convince her otherwise.
Her loss. My siblings and I all view her as a nutcase. At family functions, she can't *help* but bring this stuff up. Since being retired, it's really ALL she does. PKG is her life.
Kirrily, awesome stuff there. God bless you and see you through. It takes such courage and humility to do what you're doing. I haven't anything to say but awesome!
I - somewhat - know how you feel. When Ron kicked us all out of his church a decade ago, we all saw a change in him. We all wondered what was going on. When I had my own leaving to do last year, it was in no small part due to knowing that Ron Weinland is a false prophet and he does nothing that he didn't see his teacher do before him. Man did I have no idea which way was up for a bit then.
It hurts for a while. Give yourself some time to deal with it. It's like starting a new job... everything is foreign for a while, then you wake up one day and it's like you've always been there. But you're not alone, even though you may feel like it sometimes. Keep your chin up!!
And finally, a thanks to Ronald Weinland. You're creating more and more new xHWA's all the time. Keep up the good work!
To Anonymous 2:22
I mostly liked your comment. But I have a policy against anonymous commenting, which is stated right above the comment entry box, with alternatives given to registering.
So I had to delete your comment. Sorry.
I think 'J' says it all when he speaks of the mindset of his mum.
You do invest so much, your entire being, your finances, the very way you THINK and LIVE.
You see, if you TRULY believe the 'end is nigh' - a major shift in mindset and therefore actions can NOT be avoided.
I remember listening to Ron's sermon (I believe it was Total Resolve) - where he spoke to us all about whether or not we had total resolve. (If we didn't, pray mightily so God would help us get total resolve).
Did we believe what was going to come on us? Did we really believe the dollar would be worth nothing 'not too far from now'? If we did, we should show our very belief in what Ron had to say by how we acted and reacted to this.
Would we buy that new home? or how much would we support Ron's work instead? (Those of you who can be bothered - I do think it was that sermon where he said all this).
I remember feeling spiritually inept because I did not feel I had total resolve - and I was so scared because I didn't. Ron made me feel somewhat better though because he said total resolve was expected of those who had 'been around for a long time' and not us newbies (phew!!).
To admit Ron is wrong, thereby admitting YOU are wrong - is nearly unbearable. That Jesus might NOT be coming back soon - is UNBEARABLE once you had believed it with your entire being.
To all that have commented here - thank you for your love and support, and advice.
It is very welcome.
To Weinland Observer, yes, I do write a lot - but I am the worlds WORST proof reader of my own work (ie. spelling errors, punctuation etc - my works always need a good proof reader :-) thanks Mike!).
Love, english - hate math (timelines, dates and so forth were always so mind bending to me!).
Thanks again all, and I do enjoy sharing with you all, and those that are anonymous readers too.
I hope my experiences can provide a some insight.
Kirrily, when you were in PKG, did you find it difficult to plan out the future, such as going on trips or some sort of life plan (have a child, get a new job, move, get a pet, etc.)? Did you always think that something bad was happening around the corner and it's better to be bracing for impact rather than living?
Ever since my mother retired and joined PKG, she hasn't done a thing. She's lonely, and has talked on and on about getting a pet, but she says she doesn't have the time to get one and train it. (Because if it's one thing retired people don't have, it's time! [/sarcasm]) She is also very discouraged about going on trips to visit family; always afraid she'll be caught in prophetic events when something begins. The fear rules her life.
Thank goodness she's retired, and so doesn't pay first tithe (or second, for that matter) to that wacko. In a uncharacteristic bit of generosity, Weinland does not ask for tithes on Social Security.
Signs were around for years. She always wanted to know more than anyone else and feel special. For her, UCG's covering of end-time prophecy just wasn't enough for her. She wanted more more more. Being part of a cult that touts exclusive God-given knowledge and truth was just the lure she dreamed of.
When I bring up ANY of the lies and shady things Weinland has done (and the ones that Mike graciously documents), my mother is completely in the dark. Even after telling her about it, she is totally oblivious to his house dealings, problems with the IRS, radio program lies (If by Pentecost...).
In his Last Great Day sermon in Oct 2007 which he titled "Total Resolve", Ronnie said that PKG was to pour everything into the effort to promote his books.
Then he went on a 12-day luxury Mediterranean cruise.
When he came back from his cruise, he expanded on the "Total Resolve" theme in a two part sermon "What Has Changed?" where he said you couldn't plan on the future He indicated he was refinancing his house to donate to the church, strongly suggesting that his members do likewise.
In the end, I seriously doubt that he refinanced his house. Otherwise, how was he allowed to pay his own property taxes last October instead of having to pay into escrow monthly?
J, yes I did find it hard to plan anything.
Funny you should mention Children, as just before joining PKG, my husband and I were about to start to try for our first child.
Time is precious, as I am 36 now, and hubbie is 42.
Well, as soon as I joined PKG - that went out the window.
Hubbie was VERY distressed, but knew in a year when nothing happened, HOPED I would leave.
Now children are back on the agenda and we are starting to try (as I mention, I do believe we are in for a REALLY rough time in the economy globally - but hey, our ancestors have done it before us - so that will not stop me).
Planning for trips is another - you don't want to be far from home as that is where all your food stores etc are.
I understand exactly where your mum is - because I used to feel the same way.
Superior.
When you are in PKG, you don't recognise it - it wasn't until I left that I realised with horror what I had become.
We were RIGHT, and everyone else was WRONG.
A fake feeling of humility as you feel 'sorry' for everyone who doesn't 'see'.
It truly is shocking when you get into the depths of it.
I believe there is truly nothing you can do for her.
The longer people stay in PKG, the worse it will be for them when Ron either:-
1. Dies
2. Admits he is a false prophet; or
3. Pentecost 2012 comes and goes (again, unless he introduces a 3rd timeline).
If I had struggled as badly as I have, I shudder to think what those who stick around until the end will go through.
Half of me feels sorry for them, the other half despises them for staying when it is just SO OBVIOUS Ron is false.
J - thank you for your comments - I truly feel for you. My husband would understand more of what you go through than I, as he has been in your shoes watching his wife suffer through all this - in turn, his suffering has been great. I caused it :-(
I'm glad I still have him.
J, I was wondering about your mother's fear of traveling. Ron is letting PKG members change feast sites this year and I've heard that some are transferring from the mainland to Hawaii.
What are your mother's feast plans? Is she going to cower in fear at home and dial-in for the sermons?
Kirrily, my sister had her youngest at 38. So best wishes in that department, I hope you and your husband get the family you want.
As far as your options, if #2 is ever exercised (admits he's a false prophet), maybe Ron's curse would take effect as I die of shock.
Absent any other factor, I think option #3 (declares a new timeline) is the most probable.
There is one other possibility on the table -- the IRS puts him away for awhile. But should that happen, I think Ron would weave prophetic events around his prison sentence and try to maintain control of PKG through Laura.
Hey Mike,
So in the past, she went to the main Feast sites. I remember Colorado Springs, and a couple other states. My memory is sketchy as I regularly tuned her out. You wouldn't believe the stuff she's said about PKG and Weinland. Crazier than what Weinland himself says, I wager. Imagine Weinland's doctrines, and then factor in NWO, Big Brother, 9/11, and alien conspiracy theories and put them into the blender, and that's her. She'll probably deny the moon landing too if I asked her. :D
Anyway, for the past two years, she has traveled to another person's home in Southern California since they stopped having Feast sites in 2007. She drove there. She stayed home for the first half, and phoned-in, and then drove to someone's home to keep the last 3-4 days.
I had asked if her if she had any problem with only keeping a partial Feast when the Bible says to do it for seven days. She scoffed and told me that what Weinland says goes. To her, he has absolute authority to change the Bible whenever he sees fit. That must be a common belief amongst his followers since no one seems to have problems with his constant retcons. (Kirrily obviously did not go along with that)
She last traveled in 2005 to visit family she hadn't seen in decades. She has wanted to do it again, but can't bring herself to do it out of fear.
I really don't know what she's doing this year. I assume she's driving somewhere local again, just to connect with other PKG members, and I doubt for the whole week. I shake my head at the fact that my former home has turned into basically a PKG church hall. She used to listen to sermons with one other lady. Now I find out that the "congregation" has grown to at least a dozen, plus small children. I assume Tom Burnside attends there as she holds services in the Bay Area. I've never met any of her fellow followers (nor would I want to), so I don't know for sure. (Ha, if anyone from PKG reads this, they can probably figure out who my mother is.)
Anonymous, you should repost what you said and give yourself some sort of username. Mike deletes any "anonymous" comments.
I guess that really cuts down on the Weinland riffraff, eh Mike? I haven't seen too many comments from those prideful yet humble folk.
I am sad to admit that I too thought 'What Ron says goes'.
Whatever he told me to do, I obeyed - thinking (believing) that he indeed was God's 'mouthpiece'.
I'm just lucky I didn't follow for years and years like others.
"To admit Ron is wrong, thereby admitting YOU are wrong - is nearly unbearable."
You are so right! So right. I see this as the whole crux of the problem with accepting the truth.
I have participated in countless conversations with Weinland's followers. Nothing you can say will have any effect, nothing, until the people are willing to deal with this very thing.
When I left, the thought of looking people (family members mostly) in the eye that I had preached this stuff at for decades and telling them they were right and I was wrong... well, that was crushing.
I have a sister, several cousins, and friends who are still trapped in this cult. On totally unrelated and separate occasions I have been told, "I cannot accept what you're telling me because I would have to accept that God isn't leading me."
That's pride.
...
Kirrily, in the face of all this opposition, these things that you have overcome to get free from Ron Weinland, they are real things, powerful things - but you did it. Most people choose to wait for a time because they need Ron to be wrong and not them. You left just in the middle of things. That has got to be hard!
I'm thankful that you made it out. Your success is something many of us hoped for and prayed for and watched for now these 2+ years. It's incredible.
I'm repeating the commenting rules which are displayed right above the comment entry box, which clearly state that anonymous commenting is not allowed and giving options which are not onerous.
So to the anonymous commenters who posted at 2:22 yesterday afternoon and at 8:21 yesterday evening. I liked your comments but must enforce my rules for them to have any meaning.
If you'll send me an email to [ekimks AT gmail DOT com], I'll email you your comments and you can repost them with some sort of name.
Please observe these commenting rules because I'll hate to delete your comment.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Anonymous commenting is NOT ALLOWED. Either use one of the registration options, or if you don't want to register then select "Name/URL" from the Choose Profile pulldown and type your nickname in the "Name" box that appears. No need to put anything in the "URL" box. Use a consistent nickname -- no sock puppeting.
Keep your comments On Topic While allowing simple statements of belief that differ with mine, I do NOT allow preaching. That includes promotion of other religious personalities.
Ad hominem comments will be deleted
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J said: I guess that [not allowing anonymous commenting] really cuts down on the Weinland riffraff, eh Mike? I haven't seen too many comments from those prideful yet humble folk.
Actually, Weinland Observer posted a generous comment. Seems that he's not a baptized member, though.
Contrast that with the Weinland follower who commented on this post on Jack's blog.
Attitude.
COG ministers like to play the "attitude card" whenever they want to manipulate people into believing something. Ron Weinland is the king of using attitude as a hammer. It's interesting to understand some of the psychological underpinnings of attitudes- how they are formed and such. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_(psychology)
Don't be fooled by Weinland's overuse and abuse of the attitude hammer. It's the only card he has, which isn't really all the effective.
Great post Kirrily,
I can sympthize, having grown up JW. The End Time belief gets a hold on a person. A person can really be strung along, almost forever.
You have a very good perspective on this. Your experience will help others, especially when Ron has to change the timeline again.
Funny note: An ad for a TV movie called Meteor came on. (LOL)
Dill Weed
J and Mike: Be careful not to "paint all COG-PKG members with the same brush" just because one person who commented on Jack's blog was nasty. How do you even know that it was a Church member? I would very much doubt the he/she is and certainly, if it is a member, it is one that lacks maturity. Everyone needs to be given the opportunity to grow in spiritual maturity and this does take time and patience.
Do the Weinland followers not realize that he has actually encouraged them to steal. Telling them to make credit card purchases or take out loans on their homes because there won't be any banks, etc., in a few months so no worries... Taking something (be it a credit card purchase or a bank loan) with no intention of paying for it, is STEALING.
Observer, I did not say it was a member, I used the term "Weinland follower" in reference to the commenter on Jack's blog. I believe that somewhere I opined that the obnoxious commenter was probably not a member.
And if you'll reread my comment, you'll see that I wasn't painting all with the same brush. In fact, I was doing the opposite.
Are you painting all Weinland critics with the same brush?
I may be repeating myself, my apologies if I am, but I remembered something quite interesting.
I do not recall which sermon Ron said this in, but it would have been quite a while before the failure of the first timeline (17/4/08)
Ron said that he used to try and 'work out' timelines, dates etc. He loved it. (Mmmmmm - shows a predetermined mindset doesn't it.)
He said that he could NEVER have worked out for himself the first timeline - and that God has to 'give' it.
He was dumbfounded when God gave him the first timeline, and how it all fit together, and that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to work it out. I also remember him saying that as he was 'given' it, it truly made him aware that he NEVER would have been able to work this out for himself (after YEARS of trying!).
Again, it was 'given' to him by God.
OK - I accepted that then, and I still agree with that now.
That being the case, let's say that God WAS the one who 'gave' the first timeline to Ron.
Then, how could Ron either 'misunderstand' or get the timing entirely wrong?
Why would God 'give' an entirely wrong timeframe to Ron, let him carry on with it until it's failure - only to 'give' him a new timeframe? (Keeping in mind what the Bible itself says about testing a prophet - by what they saying coming to pass - also what Ron said the very purpose of the 2 books were, for unbelivers to know who to believe when all of this happend as Ron said it would - all the confusion out there, who to believe, who not to believe, would become evident and true when what Ron prophesied in his books came to pass EXACTLY as stated therein).
I can tell you that EVERY SINGLE UNBELIEVER I had 'warned' and shared all of Ron's 'prophecies' with - laugh and Ron (but thankfully have been very kind to me - even offered themselves as shoulders to cry on should I need it).
Some of them ordered the books out of respect for me (ie. If Kirrily believes it so undoubtedly, I will read it) and/or out of fear.
I can tell you also (as in my post) that these same people now disbelieve entirely all the other 'truths'.
So, purpose of Ron's two books - FAILED.
This was something that always bothered me going into the second timeframe:-
1. Why would God 'give' a wrong timeframe to Ron... OR
2. How could the end time witness of Revelation 'misunderstand' a timeframe 'given' by God?
It just did not make any sense (but I followed blindly anyway).
Anyway, just remembered that.
I fear that if indeed the economy does start to go down the gurgler as MANY, MANY people are saying - that Ron's followers will keep on following, and Ron will be SO encouraged.
Dill, is there any way you can speed up that clock of yours :-)
OK - I accepted that then, and I still agree with that now.
I mean, I agree that God would have to give it! :-)
Sorry, but had to delete another anonymous comment.
For that reason only, hated having to do it.
Kirrily, I seem to remember a statemnent about Ron working on dates, perhaps before the feast in 2007. But I've lost my notes on that so can't pin it down at the moment.
If only, Kirrily, if only!
I have to content myself with the steady (but seemingly slow) passage of time. : I
But, I also get to enjoy that with each passing moment the noose around Ron's prophesying neck gets tighter and tighter. Ron's committing himself again to his 2nd timeline has only cinched it tighter.
I know as one who expects the End to come soon, when it gets backed up, people get disappointed and then angry reviewing the things they were told. And, may ask themselves, "If Ron was wrong twice, why should believe him a third time?
You're right on with the 'God giving Ron' the timeline. I may soon be labeling him the Repeatedly Wrong Prophet and False Witness. : D
I look forward to his sermons, just waiting for timeline changes or hints thereof. Gosh (Sorry, Ron), I get some good laughs from him. : )
I don't know when the Last Great Day is but it might be noteworthy. I'm trying to figure out how Ron may escape the trap he has made for himself. I am almost totally convinced Ron is a flat out religous con man. I say that because I have experience with sincere but deluded ministers.
Will members begin to question things when we reach Dec 14 2009 and nothing has happened? (Think of the pressure on Ron - you can hear it in his voice esp. when talking, not about mockers, but simply members questioning things among themselves. (Gotta squash that!)
Time is like a vice squeezing Ron tighter moment by moment.
Thanks Kirrily for all that you have added here! Just think, we may be joined by other escapees!
Dill Weed
According the PKG website, the Feast of Tabernacles starts Oct 3 and the Last Great Day is Oct 10.
Hi Mike, I don't feel that all Weinland critics are the same or are motivated by the same feelings. Some are sincere, some are not. This said, you should not assume that everyone that attacks the critics are Weinland followers or supporters. They may just be having some fun with the critics. Usually the critics "eat it up" and then use it as ammunition against COG_PKG. Hardly fair, don't you agree?
Latest US Unemployment Data at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8130703.stm
I don't link CNN. Too much propaganda there.
For the last 2 months things have been getting very confusing and conflicting in terms of US Economy. Stock markets are going up while unemployment goes down, the unemployment rate decrease in percentage increases as less jobs are lost, and the exact opposite with 467000 US jobs being lost this month while the unemployment rate goes up only by 0.1%. I see deeply what Ron means when stating that this hope in things starting to get better continuing because people find the bright side and that the hope will be taken away after people are allowed to think these thoughts. Eventually all three values, unemployment , job losses, and stocks will decrease in value during a particular month. I believe from what Weinland stated that at that time the fall of the US will have begun its final stage. Kirrily, does your economic analysis research group have a site with their findings? I'd be interested in it.
Timelines, timelines, timelines. Yeah, my mom was obsessed with working out the years, the patterns of 19, the timing between Tkach's WCG-splitting sermon and the day of his death. She was working on timelines before she ever heard of PKG.
My mother got into PKG before Weinland's two books came out. It's the timeline preaching in his initial booklet that snagged her. She was so worked up about timelines that she preemptively debunked RW's 1st timeline. It never sit right with her and her perception of the numerical patterns. She even came up with the second one which is what he now goes by. And the thing is, she came up with this around 2005 or 2006. She felt that he was wrong for a good reason, in order to shake the convictions of those who were not truly faithful. I still sigh at that mindset to this day. Since RW shifting to the second timeline, my mother's "faith" has never been stronger.
So I bring up the scripture "No man knows the time nor the hour...only the Father knows" to her, and her response is "Oh, that's so old!" Wasn't the whole benefit of the Bible that it never changes?
"I believe from what Weinland stated that at that time the fall of the US will have begun its final stage."
The United States is not mentioned in the Bible. Go read it. Israel is, but not the United States. God has never been draped in the U.S. flag like Ron would have you believe.
Once again, I repeat, there is no mention of the United States in the Bible. It does not play a central role in Bible prophecy. Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself.
Only a narcissistic American salesman (HWA) would see this country as the center of God's universe. This is the lynch pin of Ron's message and has absolutely no merit outside of his mind. That's why every single one of his prophecies have failed and anything that comes from his mouth will never come to pass. It hasn't and it won't. He is a man who just plain doesn't know the Bible, because he has chased these pet, extra-Biblical theories while denying the deity of Christ.
Mark, prove this about the USA not in scripture. Mystery of The Ages clearly helps prove otherwise. As for Christ, Weinland is the first Christian to put him in a propper perspective for a while. The Lord Our God is one." Again, I am glad I don't have a traditional Christianity background. Regardless of what is proven true or false, I will remain a monithiest. Understand this basic truth if nothing else for now.
Weinland Observer said I believe from what Weinland stated that at that time the fall of the US will have begun its final stage.
Actually, what Weinland stated was that the fall of the US began no later than the fall of 2008, and was completed within 6 months after that time. Which was about 2 weeks ago, on June 21. Check out the last page of "2008 GFW". If military forces of the beast power are not marching through the streets of your city, they just haven't gotten around to it.
Observer: Is it possible that the arrogant obnoxious commenter was not actually a Weinland follower? Is it possible that you are not a Weinland follower? We can look for possibilities, but I'm taking what has been presented at face value.
I tend to think that the obnoxious commenter was not a baptized member of PKG and as I recall I so stated that somewhere, perhaps my blog, Jack's, or Dill Weed's. Nevertheless, I place him in the category of "Weinland follower" as I do Weinland Observer.
I imagine that if I were to meet a PKG member who was a member as of the Feast of Tabernacles of 2007, that the meeting would be civil although we have fundamental disagreements. My parents and siblings are members of "the scattering" as are most of the early PKG members. We've generally agreed to disagree about certain things.
As far as those who came later, the ones who were attracted by Weinland's Google ads which were stepped up after FoT 2007, I'm much less confident that a meeting would be civil.
"Mark, prove this about the USA not in scripture. "
No, the onus of proof is on you. You must prove that it is in the Bible. It isn't.
"Weinland is the first Christian to put him in a propper perspective for a while."
You are living in a bubble. No he is not the first. His theology is nothing more than Unitarianism, which has been around a LOT longer than Weinland has been on the scene. All filled with so much flawed logic, terrible Greek and Hebrew scholarship, and laughable exegesis, that it smacks of a Bible neophyte, which Ron is. Of course, his heavy handed "thou shalt believe this and not question me on it" just further illustrates Ron doesn't have a grasp of basic Bible scholarship.
If you are going to debate me on this, at least come prepared and not just say "Ron says so, so I believe it." Think for yourself.
Mark, I need say nothing as an article I recommend you click on will prove much. Some aspects are misunderstood here, but a grasp of Traditional Christianity is clear in this article. It represented my beliefs perfectly before I read Armstrong and Ron's literature, where I learned the real meaning of the Bible instead of rejecting it due to the distortion of its message. I incourage all binatarians and trinitarians to read this article. http://www.submission.org/Jesus22.html
Mike: Of all the Church members I have met, new and old, I can't imagine any of them being hostile and belligerent if you were to have a meeting with them. I'm quite certain that any one of them would be civil.
You said that you are pretty sure that you commented somewhere that the person on Jack's blog was probably not a member of COG-PKG and yet you didn't hesitate to use him/her as an example of a nasty Weinland follower. Is that fair? Obviously the person doesn't know what Ron teaches. God loves all of His creation and Satan hates all of God's creation even though he is quite willing to use them for his own purposes.
"I need say nothing as an article I recommend you click on will prove much."
So I skimmed that article. If that is what you currently believe, and don't even believe in salvation through Christ's atonement, then by definition you are not a Christian.
From the article: "The concept of Jesus dying to take away our sins is a corruption that has been added to the Scripture."
Observer:
If you'll reread what I wrote, I didn't say anywhere that all Weinland followers were like the obnoxious one. And in various statements have rendered an opinion that he was an exception. Although it was rather hard to tell, given that he always posted as anonymous. Others might have assumed that it was multiple church members posting.
Is it fair? Perhaps not. But put your blame on whomever this obnoxious poster was, not on me. And no, I'm not buying the idea that this was a critic trying to give you a bad name.
Just as it's not fair that Citizen X has called Ron's critics "Rabid" when that's not the case. If I were "rabid", there's plenty more information I could post.
Perhaps the obnoxious one took his lead from Ron Weinland. After all, Ron has called for my death at least twice. And for what -- just criticizing him?
Revelation 11 says that anyone who tries to harm the Two Witnesses must die. I have only pointed out some facts in criticism. I have never attempted to harm Weinland. ("Sticks and stones", etc) In fact I have done the opposite. When another blogger was about to publish a document which would reveal Weinland's address, this "rabid Weinland hater" (me) persuaded him to cover it up.
Did you ever criticize Citizen X for his "rabid Weinland hater" rhetoric?
I have followed Mike's blog for a while now. He deals with people with firm respect.
He has set up standards to keep posting on topic and from diverging into personal attacks. I respect that and respect him for that. That effort shows his character.
There is no pattern of bad mouthing Weinland supporters here.
If a person has to hunt around to find an example, that says something. Exceptions prove the rule. I believe that rule here is that everyone is treated with respect and is accountable for - not only providing evidence for their beliefs, but for sustaining them, i.e., answering questions.
There are pointed questions, but there should be. We are improved by questioning what we believe - whether the questions come from ourselves or others.
I am glad this blog exists and glad to interact with everyone here. That would include of course any Weinland supporters. I don't care to debate scripture, though I know the bible fairly well. My interest is in documenting Ron's claims and actions.
Dill Weed
Mark, I said I believed the article in the past. I strongly believed Islam and still believe it is less corrupt than traditional Christianity although this isn't too important. I am not middle eastern as some would be quick to jump to and always believed in all religions living in peace, and now that changed in the sence that I know God will make his truth prevail and that this will create world peace in the Thousand year reign of Jesus Christ. I now believe what Weinland teaches as God called me to it. "No man comes to me but the father draws him."
I firmly believe I didn't just figure it out but that God had to call me to it. If I don't believe that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere.
Don't forget Weinland was sent to all three major religions. I believe that I was called at the right time, after Monothism was revealed as I couldn't have excepted it any other way again unless God called me to that. That is why Cog-Pkg can be the only Cog that is true. The Oneness of God is important and as Weinland stated other religions had a headstart on the truth. Lastly, there is nothing wrong with the word Islam if you look at the word's meaning. Islam means submission, or as others define it, peace through submission to God. This simply means submitting to the will of God. I strive to do that. A final note: Although the God of Constentine the Great of 325 AD somehow is 3-in-1 and wants you to "have faith" sending you to burn if you don't believe this although you don't understand it, the God of Abraham which all 3 major religions believe they know is giving all a chance: first 144000, then more now, then billions 1100 years from now when Great White Throne Judgement ends. I have told friends of mine and any who dispute about Christianity or thing they believe the truth and that all others are doomed, "If you want to learn about true original Christianity look up Herbert W Armstrong." I asked someone who believed in the 325 Council a question, "If you believe a council can define truth and Constentine had that power do you believe he was a profit.? The person stated yes interestingly enough.
Most do not believe Weinland, most won't, and in the longrun it won't matter because God has an awesome plan.
Peace to you and praise be to God forever.
WO:
I don't quite get where you are in terms of understanding Jesus. If you want God only revealed as a singular personality, then you might also consider Judaism. The dividing line between Jews and Christianity is the divinity of Christ. (Also between Christianity and all other religions including Islam).
When Jesus claimed to be equal with God and was there at the beginning of the world, the Jews thought he was either drunk or insane.
If you truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins, your battle isn't with other COGs or with "traditional Christianity" it is with those who don't believe in Jesus. That's the real battle, and is much bigger than what Weinland would have you believe. The warfare is bigger than Weinland's war. His battle is making his COG appear better and more important than the other splinter groups. He attempts this by making bold claims (all of which have failed).
If you believe Weinland's claim that God purposefully misled him, then you believe God is a liar. I know you believe in God, is God a liar?
Mike: I do not think you are a rabid Weinland hater. Frankly, if I did, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. But there are rabid Weinland haters out there. I do not think Ron cursed you personally unless he did it by private e-mail, telephone, etc.. I don't believe the general word against the mockers was for people like you. I do think you like to take it personally though, for some reason. In this, I could be misguided and I am sorry if I have read you wrong.
Mark: Ron NEVER said that God purposely misled him in regards to the first time line. He said that God could have corrected him because He knew what Ron would do with what he believed. The fact is God waited to correct Ron and, being God, He has the right to do that. We do not have the right to question God or to get upset at the way He leads. The Truth remains the Truth.
Jesus is the Son of God, unique in every way. He knew that God was His Father and, as He said, He did nothing on His own, only that which He saw His Father doing. Jesus was in complete submission to God the Father and it was the Father that has raised up Jesus, our Passover and Savior, and placed Him at His right hand (given Him authority). The Jews do not believe any of this about Jesus.
Weinland Observer,
I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to find the 'true' religon.
I thought I had it as a JW, after exiting, I realized how the impending End was always kept before us - claims were made about 1914, 1975, then the 'generation of 1914' would not pass away before the end... then it was those who were of 'age.' We were filled with expectancy - as their numbers dwindled... Then, that belief was changed. Now, JWs are expecting the End to come at some unspecified, but close time in the future.
The JW organization - never took responsiblity for date setting - blaming it on members speculation -even though their literature encouraged such speculation. That failure and the sneaky and sophisticated way they led up to changing timelines is something I despise - especially because those leaders tout themselves as 'the annointed slave class charged with dispensing spiritual food at the proper time.'
It is known by all that there are 1000 different religions teaching a thousand similar but different things. Which one is right? I don't know. And I know I don't have the time or desire to learn Greek or Hebrew to investigate them all. Nor do I trust someone to tell me what God meant was...
I know that under these conditions, I cannot find the 'one true religon' period. That is just a fact. But, I believe in God and his coming Kingdom.
I am going to wait until the choice is clear. You can't walk through a narrow and cramped gate without some daylight.
God calls and reveals. Yes, he does. But, people make claims and claim to speakfor God, too. Nothing wrong with that. But, how well does what they say stand up?
That is really the question. I hear Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, John Hagee and company. I listen to them and learn what I can. But am not committed to any of them or their particular religon. As I said, I'm waiting, listening, and scrutinzing what they say.
I said all that to get to this:
In my view, Ron does not have the 'truth'. I am willing to take what he says at face value and to see if what he says is so or not. I'll let his claims play out. Then it's fact checking time.
Believing Ron means accepting his explanations and claims.
The Witnesses are supposed to be able to prevent rain DURING their 1260 day ministry and TO STRIKE the earth with plagues AS OFTEN AS THEY WISH. Stopping the blasphemy at ideaCity would have been a goodtime.
Ron says he thinks he won't receive Two Witness powers until AFTER the 5th Trumpet. OK.
Ron remains an obscure preacher.
Ron said the Thunders would be increasing, never decreasing - This isn't happening.
Ron has been wrong more than once about the start of his ministry and will eventually have to revise the timeline again. Would the Two Witnesses mistake the beginning of their ministry? I think that they would not.
I don't hate Ron, but I certainly hate what he is doing. I follow his sermons for any timeline changes. Ron's missteps have invalidated his claims to be God's prophet, but he persists. Amazing, really. To put yourself in the position that... what Ron says goes...
Dill Weed
Observer, do you think Ron is in complete submission to God?
Mark: Jesus is the only one who was ever in complete submission to His Father. No one else before or after Him has been. I believe Ron has a heart to follow after God but he is humble enough to admit that he, like the rest of us, falls short and must repent daily.
One time I had a case of falling shorts, but I caught them just in time!
Dill Weed :D
"I believe Ron has a heart to follow after God but he is humble enough to admit that he, like the rest of us, falls short and must repent daily."
I have not heard him say that he has repented. Can you point me to a time when he said he repented? He justifies his inaccurate and false predictions, but never said he repented before God.
Note: Will post this is 2-3 posts as too many words for one!
Observor, I repeat - Ron stated that he did NOT figure out the first timeline.
He stated that GOD GAVE IT TO HIM.
Therefore, (if you believe Ron that is) God either lied to Ron, or just completely changed His mind. (Or maybe He was bored and wanted to play a big trick on everyone ;-)).
I woke up this morning wondering what Observor and Weinland Observor are doing on this blog.
Ron himself said that looking at blogs like this hurts him, and effects him faith wise.
Ron has stated that if the effect is that bad on him, that his followers certainly SHOULD NOT be on blogs like this, or reading any information that could make them DOUBT.
I think Observor and W. Observor have offered some good insights, (it also helps outsiders realise whats really going on at PKG) revealed their side of the story etc - but really, WHY are they here?
After all, the rest of us here are all blind and dumb - God has not permitted us to 'see' His truth - so I'm thinking, what are they here to prove?
The rest of us are here to bag Ron - so why would they want to be a part of that?
To stick up for Ron perhaps? (Yeah, the witnesses with all their powers need that kind of support).
I know I'm sounding cheeky here, but really, WHY are you both here?
In reference to a question about research etc into stock market, coming Depression etc - I will not reveal my inner circle. I have been open enough using my own name on this blog.
If you would simply google 'coming depression' Many You Tube videos can be accessed with MANY respected (I repeat, respected) authors, financial gurus, etc ALL stating GREAT depression in the next year or two (Harry Dent being one).
Also interestingly, MANY 'christians' (yes, those in 'traditional' stating a collapse also.
Ron is one of MANY!!!!!!! Why is this just so hard to understand. After all, one of you stated it was a major reason for believing Ron (ie. unemployment rates etc).
What seperates the 'witness' of revelation to any of these other people?
Oh yes, what some of these others are saying is a LOT more specific, and as I have been observing some of these for some years now, a LOT more specific than Ron has ever been. Over a period of time, many of these others have proven to be quite accurate.
To understand finance/economy takes YEARS. I myself have knowledge of Technical Analysis, and understand the importance of cycles. (Yes, cycles are important - and it is very easy to get them wrong).
October 09 is 80years since the 1929 crash - interesting.
One of my peers, David Burton, has predicted the complete and iminent collapse of the Federal Reserve (google it).
It was my knowledge of the coming financial collapse that resonated with me the most about Ron's books - ie. the purpose of the collapse, and the timing MATCHED somewhat to what my peers and my own research were stating. (Funny, so far it is Ron that is off! I told one of my peers about Ron, and he said that he was off by a year or two ;-) this was back in April 08 - of course, I ignored him knowing he wasn't 'called' and would die as he mocked Ron).
I repeat (for it feels like the hundreth time now) - NOTHING SEPERATES RON FROM ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE SAYING THE SAME THING ABOUT THE ECONOMY (oh yes, except that the time has come and gone now for Ron - who was preemptive about the timing of the collapse - others are saying will start later this year, and go on for 10-20 years depending on who you listen to). Yes, that includes the collapse of the US dollar! Yes, MANY, MANY (google it!!) are saying the SAME STUFF.
Ron himself says 'No lie is of the truth' - also remember that a counterfeit can be VERY HARD to tell from the truth.
I believe Ron has a lot of truths - but also a lot of lies, therefore COG-PKG is NOT the 'true' church of God.
People WANT (so badly) for Ron to be right (as I did) - but he has proven himself WRONG by his own words.
The very purpose of his 2 books (being aimed at unbelievers) Has FAILED.
Many items in his 2 books (especailly GFW) have been proven WRONG - therefore, given Ron's message 'no lie is of the truth' - his books are FALSE. Ron is false.
Like I have mentioned, I believe God gives understanding - but hey, when you are proven that the 'given' understanding is FALSE by what you have been told coming to pass does NOT, you will have to admit (as I did) that God did not 'give' you this. That you are NOT being led by God (ouch, ouch, ouch).
To be honest, there is no point arguing either side of this.
We think you are blind, you think we are blind.
This is a no win.
Again, this is coming off rude here, it is not my intent.
But really, W.O and O - really, why are you both here? Seriously?
In relation to the commencement of tribulation, I believe this extract of a summary I received says a lot:- (so I am not guilty of plagerism, I have changed some of the words but not the meaning - I leave the quote marks in to make it easy to see it is not me writing it only, and I am not naming the person who wrote it.).
"Weinland still teaches that the Tribulation began in Dec of 08 and are now six months into the great tribulation. He says that the start will be gradual. Jesus Christ said different - the Tribulation will begin when the Appalling Abomination, that Great Final False Prophet; goes to the Holy Place (the Temple Mount). When that happens said Christ, those that are in Judea should flee for their lives; without even stopping to get their coats, Mat 24 15:21. Why such an immediate need to flee? Rev 13:5 speaks of a beast emperor who has the power to make war for 42 months (1,260 days). Rev 11:2 says that the city of Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles for 42 months. Daniel writes that the Tribulation shall last for; a time, times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years or 42 months) Dan 12:7. Jesus said that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the TIMES (the times, time and 1/2 time of Dan 12:7) of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Luk 21:24.
When one takes ALL of the Scripture on this subject together, the answer is clear. The Tribulation will begin with the occupation of Jerusalem by a Gentile power and it shall last for precisely 42 months. The onset of the Tribulation will be VERY OBVIOUS to everyone. It will NOT be anything gradual at all. It will be sudden 1 Thess 5:3; powerfull, destructive and overwhelming.
Ron does err greatly; not knowing the Scriptures. For the Great Tribulation will not begin until the Final False Prophet visits the Holy Place."
The above is just interesting - I personally am not listening to ANYBODY at the moment, and will probably stay that way for a while.
Just thought it was an interesting perspective, and when put like that - well, 'those who have ears to hear' (he he he!! ;-).
Everyone - have a great day :-)
Ron wouldn't do very well in a debate with Kirrily!
She'd take him to the scriptual woodshed! :D
Dill Weed
Dill :-) he he he!!
I agree with you about finding the 'true' church (if there is one).
Can't be done.
I am also now doing what you are (except I am not listening to anyone at the moment - need a rest!).
Watch, wait.
One other thing too, is a number of these other people stating economy collapse, are also saying that later this year marks a 'cycle' of war.
According to them, we can expect some trouble to start and increase later this year.
Some of these people predict this stuff with Astrology (does Ron maybe have a faulty crystal ball?)
Now Ronnie, I know you say you are not a fortune teller - but you do prophesy - so why is the devil being a lot more specific (and accurate) than you?
"Ron wouldn't do very well in a debate with Kirrily!"
You are right. Ron would've ran away early! Too hard for his ears to hear! This is supposed to be the Witness of Revelation who can not withstand the negativity at IdeaCity?
"I believe Ron has a heart to follow after God but he is humble enough to admit that he, like the rest of us, falls short and must repent daily."
Ron went to GREAT length to explain after failure of first timeline why he DIDN'T have to repent.
Go figure.
Oh yes, that's right - GOD GAVE HIM THE TIMING, but Ron misunderstood it as He knew what Ron would do...
Oh blah, blah, blah, blah.
I don't hate Ron either, nor do I wish him physical harm.
I do hope the IRS teaches him a lesson in reality. Maybe Ron and Madoff can get together and make more specific predictions from jail about the economy.
Mark: There was not negativity at Idea City; there was blasphemy. There is a HUGE difference! Ron didn't run away. He walked away and didn't look back.
I used the expression 'ran away' in my blog. Not, of course, in the physical sense of moving one's feet quickly. But, in the sense of retreating.
Running away in the sense of not standing up for the sake of God's holy name, particularly, as God's chosen prophet, to whom God speaks regularly, and spokesman for the Two Witnesses of Revelaton, in the midst of their End Time ministry, no less, at a function which God had called Ron to speak and Ron's wondering for what purpose God arranged to have him called to - to witness blasphemy and do nothing???
Seriously, what would the prophets of old done? They lacking the power of the Two Witnesses?
Where is Ron's boldness?
Dill Weed
dumb·found also dum·found (dmfound)
tr.v. dumb·found·ed also dum·found·ed, dumb·found·ing also dum·found·ing, dumb·founds also dum·founds
To fill with astonishment and perplexity; confound.
How on earth does he cope? The mind boggles.
No wonder he is so 'off'.
;-)
Dill Weed: I disagree with you. By leaving, Ron made a much bolder statement than if he had stayed and "fought it out". There is more than one way to speak out. (and I do realize that you didn't mean "run" literally)
Thanks for responding, Observer.
Leaving could be seen as bold. Perhaps, Ron will become bolder as time passes. He does have 3 times left, after all. Maybe this is just the warming up phase of the Thunder that will announce to the world that Ron's is God's prophet and Witness. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
How much longer I wonder?
How much longer do you think?
And how long until the 2nd Trumpet?
The half way point on Ron's ministry is 9/4/10. Ron has posed the question - would you have the faith to wait 2 years for the 2nd Trumpet.
Time will tell. Tick Tock.
Dill Weed
"By leaving, Ron made a much bolder statement than if he had stayed and "fought it out"."
No, it didn't. Who would he fight? Isn't he supposed to use Witness Powers by now? Yet, nobody even noticed or cared that he left. I think he left so he could catch Wheel-Of-Fortune at 6pm in his hotel room.
Kirrily, to answer your question, Observer states why he comes to this blog on a seperate topic. I can say more about my own reasons. The first thing I posted here was my idea on what time, times, and half a time could mean. I post whenever I wish to clarify something that people seam to misunderstand and whenever a question is asked whether it be out of curiosity or otherwise. Occasionally I have asked questions from some, mainly you and Observer. I have never posted in forums before and liked reading them, and forum posting seams fun although this isn't exactly a forum although the comments that come after a post turn a blog post in to a kind of blog forum. I now wish I would have posted at Weinland Witness forum while it was active but I probably wasn't ready then. This site isn't causing me to lose my faith and it is doing me good as I am growing in understanding from answering questions and reading comments. You stated you thought people like Observer and I found others here blind and dumb, etc. I don't think any lower of you or anyone else here. As Observer stated, I don't think most people clasify as mockers. Most people who post here believe Weinland is false and hope to lead others to come to this conclusion. To teach anything other than what you believe to be true is hipocracy, so I can understand why people like you are sharing their oppinions. Also, I learn a lot from this website particularly from what you post. I will look up the info you recommended. I do have to ask you one thing here though. You use words like inner circle, cycles, war cycles and discussed numerology. I understand you might not answer this or avoid direct answers if this is the case, but are you an Illuminati Insider, involved in anything having to do with the CIA, New World Order, or anything Masonic or did you simply discover such info? I didn't ask this to offend you but I was curious as Conspiratorial History is an interest of mine along with other interests: religion and philosophy, science, writing, politics, and learning and applying knollege. Also does the name Albert Pike and the website threeworldwars.com mean anything to you?
P.S. Do you literally believe people like me deserve no respect as you stated maybe slightly indirectly at some point?
Mark, I am not becoming a Jew anytime soon. As for monothiism, many other religions teach the idea. If I wanted to stick to that truth I wouldn't have changed my beliefs at all if I hadn't discovered the truth of the Bible through Armstrong's literature and Weinland's sermons and publications, many of which I have yet to listen to. To those of you wishing to search through all religions and ideas for truth, go to sacred-texts.com and if this applies to you stop listening to the likes of John Hagee who are nothing but fundamentalist Christian Zionists!
Peace to all. Here's a poem.
You have heard me.
I have heard you.
You do not know much of me.
I also know not much of you.
Love me, hate me, be neutral to me.
My actions are the same.
No hidden agenda, no secret end game.
Each day God's love I try to bring in me and comprehend.
I wish to have outgoing concern for others and hope through God's ways and God's plan someday all will be my friend.
WO,
No, not part of illuminati or anything like that :-)
Inner circle wording just meant my peers, where I work etc - which I would like to keep private :-)
I understand what you are saying now in relation to being here.
When I was in your shoes (ie. believing PKG) I would never have come to a place like this - as I believed Ron when he said it affected him, and I did not want to be affected and took is STRONG advice not to come to places like this.
I enjoy our chats.
Was probably a bit rough when I said "no respect" for those who believe Ron - that is my hurt coming out I guess.
I truly do not understand why people stay - but we humans are all different.
A good debate is great, and I will never forget that I was once in your shoes.
Enjoy your day.
Don't miss my upcoming post, Cold Squid.
Dill Weed
"To those of you wishing to search through all religions and ideas for truth, go to sacred-texts.com and if this applies to you stop listening to the likes of John Hagee who are nothing but fundamentalist Christian Zionists!"
Wow. I thought most of Weinland's COG-PKG folk were hard line COG-type people. With Weinland Observer believing a combination of Islam and mythology and esoteric texts, it is no wonder why Jesus is lost on him/her and why Weinland has a bunch of free-agent radicals at his doorstep. Also underscores why the only thing Weinland cares about is whether you tithe. Believe what you may, just give him your money.
Mark,
I agree with you.
Being part of PKG myself, I was amazed at all the different types of people it attracted.
Most of us had a background in end time stuff, conspiracy theories etc.
Most of the new ones formed this type of mentality (myself included).
The 'older' ones were from other COG's - who came accross Ron in one way or another.
Looking at 'fruit' - you have to wonder of all the types that are attracted to Ron.
Interesting.
I am not sure if anyone else has ever done this, but I have just gone through most of G.F.W and have come up with 4 pages of VERY OBVIOUS failures to what Ron has stated.
I am about to email it to Mike.
I didn't think I could ever be bothered to do it, but hubbie is sick in bed and I was bored.
Will be up to Mike as to what he does with it.
Oh yes, when I say 4 pages, I mean 4 X A4 pages I have TYPED - not just 4 pages of Ron's book.
There are HEAPS of failures, and I have only done the REALLY OBVIOUS ones.
Kirrily, I really enjoy your writing. Thanks so much for not being seduced by the Dark Side of the Faith. ;) Perhaps you should open your own blog. IMO, there can't be enough anti-Weinland blogs.
On that note, as a member of UCG, I have to skim over the anti-COG stuff on these blogs, and just focus on the Weinland criticism. They're not all like PKG, and feel they all get a bad rap. I'm too young to remember the WCG days, but the stuff that happened back then was pretty nuts. It just goes to show what happens when man rules things. Bad things can happen anywhere.
Mike and Dill Weed, you are my internet superheroes, and a good source of Weinland nuttery, because I sure ain't gonna ask my mother what Weinland is up to!
The best part of all this is that with every passing day, it's one less day until the end of Weinland's ministry. This charade cannot be indefinite. The pressure is building. Soon enough it will burst, and when it does, it will destroy many. Kirrily, you suffered a lot, even though you came to this realization yourself and got out. Imagine what will happen to the people you know who shockingly discover it was all a lie.
Mark, I never said I believed everything on the sacred-texts.com site. It would take a long time to read everything there even once. I did read some of the texts and was recommending it to those who wish to search all religions. Well, the site doesn't contain every religious page but you can learn a lot from it. I always say that the best way to learn about the true form of any religion is to read its book. Remember too that I'm not in PKG and can't be for 1 or mmore of 3 reasons that I mentioned. I hope to be in the true cog in the future though. Let's just say it might have to wait until the Melennial Reign of Christ. Seams to me you examined the links on the sacred text archive and simply assumed I believed the whole package. I don't now as I have found truth and I didn't before, in the past only believing what supported the oneness of God and gave wisdom.
There's another possibility, guest posts. Less time consuming than blogging.
Taking some time to refocus oneself on things neglected as a Weinland follower and readjusting one's thinking are good ideas - really good ideas. It is important to make a definitive break with what once held sway over you so you can come back to it later, if you want to, with a objective eye and fresh perspective.
Weinland has been debunked widely and thoroughly. Not saying don't do it. I focus on Ron's latest ramblings. Mike has done an excellent job debunking Ron from start to finish and so have others. There is room for all.
Dill Weed
To Weinland Observer,
After reading your posted comments, particularly some of these latest ones, you seem like such and intelligent, reasonable, and rational thinking person.
And I mean that sincerely.
And that baffles me.
Doesn't Ron Weinlands failed prophecies and rearranging of timelines, and the way he says God reveals things to him, and then changes the revelation, doesn't any of that incline you to think that all of this is from Ron Weinland's own thinking, and not God's?
I don't understand why someone like yourself is still seemingly convinced that Ron Weinland is the real deal.
What is it exactly that keeps you thinking favorably of him?
And again, I ask this in all sincerety.
RKPDRMR, I believe what was revealed to Weinland as it fits perfectly. After being away last summer and coming back home, it was end july. I had been away for a month, and convinced Weinland was false. I went on his website to see what had happened since, half wondering whether it would be down altogether. I found it was up and decided that I was going to at least check out what had happened since I was away and to my surprize I found the 50th truth fit perfectly, and the truth isn't just the timeline revelation but how and why as well. To except it if you don't understand it is indeed wrong. Later on after the fast was declared and I became disillusioned, I realized a few months later that I had simply not understood it because I was too angered at the time to even listen. In other words, my mind had been made. After some unemployment rate preddictions coming to pass and the posting on time, times, and half a time along with the sermon titled Half A time, I understood how the fast could alter the framework on when events occur while not changing the time when they occur. Rest assured that IF Weinland were proven false beyond doubt I would pick up on it. One thing is for sure: we are in the final 3-1/2 years according to Weinland and there is no way it can be changed. Notice Weinland mentions it every week now? The Last Great Day sermon will explain the time, times, and half a time and I believe it will make sence to me. Rest assured that if it were to not make sence and I believe this is almost 100% unlikely, I would not believe Weinland anymore. I do know I don't understand Weinland from brainpower alone but from God's power. I saw what my brainpower could do, become so wise that i wouldn't even listen to Ron's full explanation of the fast because I decided to hear one seentence and thought it made no sence. I am thankfull that God had re-called me.All are required to do what they believe is true and search for truth, believing what they feel is truth and not blindly but with proof. I'll let you know what I thought when I believed Weinland was false. I believed he was sincere but sincerely wrong and that his teachings were still more in line with original Christianity than any other church. I also realized that he had to keep doing what he thought God was guiding him to do, and again this was when I felt he was false. When it all comes down to it, you don't have much of a choice if you feel God has spoken to you. Your only logical option would be to do as you are told as it is unwise to disobey an authority greater than any other.
You read my other posts it seams so there is no need to go in to too much detail: but I have learned and am learning much from cog-pkg that is helping me be a better person, don't keep my life on hold, keep learning, and above all as a conspiritorial historian from threeworldwars.com often states, "Live free and keep thinking!"
RKPDRMR,
I understand where you are coming from, that being trying to understand why intelligent people stay with Ron.
I, like Weinland Observor, thought the 50th Truth made perfect sense.
It did always bother me however, that another COG came up with the 50th truth timeline BEFORE Ron, actually WAY before Ron did. (Not to mention Mike DDTFA too!).
That always bothered me, but I ignored it. Ron said to figure it out was not "rocket science." (When he stated that others had come up with the timeline before him).
But that goes against what Ron says about NOT being able to 'figure' out timing, and that God has to GIVE it.
So many contradictions.
With the other COG coming up with the timeline BEFORE Ron, it was tricky because this person also believed other 'truths' that Ron had - (ie. traditional christianity falsity, sabbath, holy days etc etc).
That made me wonder if I was in the RIGHT COG - after all, if another group came up with God's supposed timeline first, what did that say about Gods Final Witness getting it wrong the first time, then changing it to the second timeline which another COG came up with first? Just didn't make sense. Again though, I CHOSE to ignore these important facts.
Incidently, this other COG person has now stated that tribulation will begin October 09 with Jesus return I think on Pentecost 2013. I don't believe this either (not going down that path again, at least until it becomes REALLY obvious!!)He doesn't call himself a witness though, or a prophet which is good - just an educated speculator. Again, nothing against this person, but I'm not going down this path again.
So, if you believed (as I used to) that the TRUE church would be a COG - then why would another COG come up with timing (that only God was meant to give, and couldn't be figured out) to a COG that was NOT PKG?)
Still, I CHOSE to ignore the blatant truth before me.
For me, finally to disbelieve Ron - took for the second 45-90 day timing for blowing of second trumpet went out the window.
It is interesting though isn't it - the mindset!!
Me again.
Just following on that theme, remember that Ron says the whole purpose of the books was so God was going to reveal who he was working through (ie. the witnesses) and also begin to reveal Himself.
So why would he do this by giving Ron (His end time prophet and witness) an incorrect first timeline, then giving the correct one to another COG, only for Ron to swap over to this timeline previously 'figured out' or 'given' to the another COG?
If this is God's way of revealing Himself with no confusion, well, I must be a lot dumber than I think.
Kirrily, other Cogs may have come up with the timing but they didn't come up with the balanced reasoning behind the timing. They didn't know who the man of Sin was and how 40*7 280 days after his declaration of basically declaring as true everything thousands of people realized to be false he was consumed and that the judgement of the original of his type, Saytin would be judged by Trumpets coming 280 days after the day he used to declair himseklf in God's place, Christmas! Out of curiousity, were you excited when you heard that June 28 sermon? If Ron had given it after July 16 that would be another matter, but I never saw it as a timeline failure but as additional understanding. No, don't go in to the Oct. 9 Tribulation start date group. I will honestly say that Weinland was the first one I ever believed when it came to imminent prophesy, the first being Nostradamus. My theory is that based on the fact that a new church is created in the US every third day according to a statistic and that it is clear that America probably has a larger numbers of religions and sects than any other country in the world does that you could set yourself up to looking forward to at least one eppocalypse per year if you had the mind to. Fairly accurate, don't you think? I don't understand why Christianity has the largest number of Epocalypse groups over any other religion. I looked through some of the economy info and tried searching some of the words you posted. I found a good blog http://thecomingdepression.blogspot.com/
Check it out and let me know if this reflects your views. One of its preddictions is that something will happen in the next 130 days or so that will lead to the collapse of the US dollar. The poster seamed just as confident as Ron did with the 45-90 days, except the term "a little over 130 days" was used. That makes for some flexibility.
P.S. Are there people from PkG who still talk to you and respect you. I would hope that wouldn't go out the window as that wouldn't be Agape as on talks aboout quite a bit. Also, are there people who don't lose respect, family, or friends after believing the sabbath and other COG teachings?
Kirrily,
Thanks for your comments, and sharing your learning experience.
Weinland Observer,
Thanks for a straight-up and honest answer from the heart.
No, don't go in to the Oct. 9 Tribulation start date group.
WO, I don't know what this is about, and I suspect that no one else here has either. It appears to me that Weinland is only one of many doomsayers whom you frequent.
WO,
When anyone leaves PKG, members are told to have no contact with them whatsoever.
Whilst park of PKG - 2 members were disfellowshiped. We were told by Wayne Matthews to have no contact with them, and hang up the phone on them if they tried to call.
When I left, I have had no contact from the members I left behind.
That is how it works.
I was worried that when my mum left that I would be told not to contact her, but Wayne said just not to talk with her about any spiritual matters.
Rons timing of the abomination of desolation doesn't make sense according to Daniel 12:11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolishyed and the abomination that causes desolution is setup, there will be 1,290 days" - a LOT LONGER than 1,290 days has gone by since the abomination has taken place....
Kirrily, the 1290 days was when the Abomination of Desolation ended, where Saytin no longer held power in the scattered church. Weinland stated that after that time, more of the Remonant would begin to be called. The sacrifices being taken away meant all being sealed and that none would be added to that sealing. You may have gotten me on to something. That regulation you just explained about not being permitted to talk to those who leave is cold. No love whatsoever. If they specifically inforce it, it is a little too strict and controlling. Maybe it's a recommendation like not posting in forums which you thought was forbidden while Observer stated it wasn't.
Mike, for your information I don't keep up with any other endtime predictor.
"With Weinland Observer believing a combination of Islam and mythology and esoteric texts,"
Actually, some of WO's stuff (especially the last bit about NWO/conspiracy guy schtick), suggests that s/h/it's a long-time member of the church (pre-1994) and/or a member of Ritenbaugh's splinter, as they are pretty heavy into the Islamic thing as well.
Of course, that's only speculation on my part, if WO would like to confirm or deny this speculation, that's his/her prerogative.
"Saytin"
I find WO's deliberate typos and very planned-out misspellings to be a bit of a red herring; I know Mike has discounted this, but I would not put it past the church hierarchy for WO to be one of the elders; as for s/h/it's adamant statements that s/h/it is not baptized, remember one of the cardinal rules of two-tiered information (a common tactic used by cults): Those of us "in the world" are already deceived (to church members' minds), so it is perfectly acceptable for WO to be deceitful in his/her dealings with us.
Just FYI and fair warning. I find WO's posts to be very suspicious, and contradictory.
"That regulation you just explained about not being permitted to talk to those who leave is cold. No love whatsoever."
That's the way it's always been, even in WCG days, WO.
Disfellowshipping was reserved for members who questioned the authority of the Levitical priesthood, held back tithes, holy day offerings or special offerings, or who were viewed as "not truly converted". Or members who were targeted by the ministry "just because". For instance, spiritually widowed members were always a favourite target, in the two areas I attended.
After being told not to return to services again (usually backed up with an official letter from Headquarters, if the member in question tried to go over the head of the local ministry trying to have them put out), it would be announced from the pulpit that the member, their spouse and children, had been put out, and that no contact was to be initiated with, or responded to, by members of the church.
This included being instructed from the pulpit to cross to the other side of the street, if you were about to cross paths with someone who had been disfellowshipped.
On very rare occasions, when ministry were put out, they were disfellowshipped and "marked", meaning that they would be the first ones to be thrown into the abyss, with the Beast and Death, before the Third Resurrection.
After reading about "Saytin", I was just about to send a tithe check to Ron and beg his forgiveness for ever questioning him, much less criticizing him.
But after reading your warning, I have come to my senses. I'll be trying to figure out which of Weinland's elders WO could be.
I’VE GONE OVER THE WORD LIMIT AGAIN! 3 POSTS REQUIRED:=
Purple Hymnal, Mike,
I'm missing something here - what's this about Saytan and WO? Have I missed something here? Elder?? What the??? I've had a few drinks, so maybe I am being a bit slow....
WO:-
No, it's not just a 'suggestion' not to contact X PKG'ers - if there is PROOF that you HAVE BEEN in contact with x members, you yourself will be disfellowshipped (because you have been disobedient to God's ministry - therefore God himself, and IF you do not repent - you will be disfellowshipped - as being in rebellion to GFW and therefore God himself - just as if you do not believe Ron, you are disbelieving God Himself - according to Wayne Matthews and Ron).
I myself gave my word to Wayne that I would not contact Nathan or Sharna again - and I have kept my word. (Oh how I miss them, a lovely couple. Got married by Wayne early Dec 08 before the first trumpet in case they would not have the chance! They only dated for 6 months or so! Hope they are doing OK. I gave Sharna a lovely dress of mine that she on the day they got married - just went to courthouse, as no time to plan proper wedding as first trumpet due 2 weeks or so after their courthouse wedding date.)
(In addition, when I informed Wayne - yes I was a dobber!! - that a current member was looking at blogs such as this (DDTFA for example - yes, I used to be against you Mike - I am so ashamed, and so sorry given all you have done for me :-(), and looking at other religious material (sorry CH and LH!!) - he said if I could provide PROOF - that they would be immediately disfellowshipped - 2 eventtually were - not only for that reason, another was for rebelling against Wayne stating a 60+ year old man and myself could not car pool together to Sabbath services - because it was the appearance of sin) - not paying Tithe was another for one of them).
Unlike yourself WO, I WAS member and baptised (baptised Jan08, member since Jul 07)- I have witnessed this for myself.
I know this sounds strange, but I actually AGREE with this. After all, if you believed Ron was true, as I did, then why would the need exist to listen to ANYBODY else? That's why I am surprised you go to all these other sites etc. A PKG member, a TRUE member, would NEVER do this. If you say you believe Ron, and you do all this, you need to ask yourself some serious questions. Maybe you are not baptised because you have not proven yourself worthy yet - we are free to speculate because you will not answer this question as to why you are not baptised when there is opportunity still - ie. tribulation has not started yet, and you still have opportunity - Ron stated that people have done EVERYTHING humanly possible to get themselves baptised while time still permits- after all, you do NOT have the Holy Spirit UNTIL your are bapised and hands laid on you - why would you NOT do this if you have opportunity? After all, according to the almighty Ron, we ARE 7 months into the Tribulation! Why go through it without Holy Spirit if you can help it!).
After all, if God is speaking through His two and only witnesses, what need would there be to investigate anything else? Any other website or relegion (unless of course you do not ENTIRELY believe RW).
Why would you want to be in contact with people who did not believe EXACTLY (one of Ron's favourite terms) with what you did? Why partake with others who are in disagreement with you - in ANY WAY shape or form?
Oh, that's right, it's hurts Ron's faith as he mentioned himself, but I guess you must be stronger in YOUR faith than God's very own Witness and Prophet - and you do not even have the Holy Spirit yet!! WOW!! (as you state that coming to places like this does not affect your faith). Boy, you are a very formidable spiritual person - Ron would be jealous. Maybe YOU are the second witness and not Laura?? And only 20 years old! Wow!! And not affected in that you still 'live your life' - even knowing that Nukes will be detonated any day now (I guess any day, as 45-90 days after first trumpet past a while ago now).Boy, you ARE srong!!
Ah, remember it is GOD that calls - and PKG'ers who believe they can MAKE people see, well - according to Ron that is PRIDE. (I know this because I used to talk to Wayne in great detail about my pride in wanting to constantly prove to people that Ron was right).
Again, that is why Ron suggests believers in PKG have NO PART in places such as this blog, and was the VERY REASON I did not partake until after I left PKG. Again, what are people trying to prove?
We (unbelievers of PKG) are blind after all, do you think God needs your help to make us 'see'? - That is PRIDE to think God needs your help.
W.O - I know you are not necessarily trying to make us 'see' to be fair, but what else would be be doing here other than to prove your own point? And if you are here for your own spritual growth, then why on earth would you need this in addition to GFW that God HIMSELF provided to you? I'm sure God can do His own work after all?
Why have ANYTHING to do with people who disagree, and do not believe as you do? Again, Ron as GFW does not having anything to do with us 'unbelievers' - so you are putting yourself above Ron, and therefore according to Ron, above God Himself.
This behaviour (we were told by Ron and Wayne Matthews) is being in rebellion (by not doing as Ron does) to Gods Final Witness - and therefore God Himself.
When people were disfellowshipped, members of PKG were notified. Wayne said of a person who left in Northern QLD that he was going against GOD Himself, by not believing Ron.
I believed that - you obviously dont.
You are not a true believer of PKG - no matter what you think.
Again WO, i don't want to sound rude to you, just stating things as I know it to be true (ie. I WAS an ACTUAL member of PKG, unlike yourself - who asks many questions of me that is common knowledge to an actual baptised member).
Thanks WO, for once again providing insights for outsiders - the mindset of PKG followers is truly, well, incredible.
Take care, and all the best until next time :-)
There are many things that I could comment on but there would be no point. However, Purple Hymnal's comment about it being OK for us to deceive people that are already deceived is an accusation that is totally unfounded and ridiculous. The one about WO being an Elder also fits into this category. Why can't we just stick to the facts?
With regard to the "Saytin" bit: WO has, how shall we put it, a novel grammatical and spelling style. Just in case anyone missed it, my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote my last comment. I have no clue as to how anything WO has said could satisfy some hidden agenda. The only person he's deceiving is himself.
Kirrily, I am not offended that a PKG member would warn others away from my blog -- I rather expect it.
As far as your concern about how Nathan and Sharna are getting along after such a short courtship, I think that concern is well founded. I've heard of another PKG couple that married in haste because time was so short and are not compatible.
It seems that despite Wayne Matthews' amiable demeanor, he has a serious sheriffing side. With so few in Queensland (IIRC the number 5 was mention once), he was sure willing to disfellowship what he had.
I read both of his books. We need to pray for this man, to allow God to show him the truth. Satan is using this prominent figure to his advantage. Pray for the congregation to see the light.He has something all of us want to know and believe will happen. In gods timing. We do not know the day or hour. Only god knows.
can anyone give me help we lost our daughter to this guy we had a family tragidy and she got very involved with ronald weinland ..and she keeps it hidden from us we are worried is there anyone out there is he teaching her to rebel against her family she doesn't even call us anymore. If we tell her we love her there is no responds back we are wondering if this is also part of his teachings
cmpj, unless you've given your daughter a hard time about the cult, Weinland does not teach that his members should break off contact.
The reality is rather different. Perhaps I can help, my email contact information is on the mailbox on the right hand column near the top of this blog.
HI . Is this blog still active ? From what I've read, Ron Weinland doesn't have much time left now. "IS CHRIST ABOUT TO RETURN?
June 9, 2018
Is Christ About to Return? …Could it be in less than a year?"
Same ol' . All the best everyone ! Merry Xmas and a happy new fear :)
Mike. Hey my brother in Christ. I thank u for your service. I can't tell u how much I was touched by Kirrleys story and " Don't drink the cool aid".
Hey Mike --- I NEED YOUR HELP BADLY.
Ive tried to text u some details but always messed up the link and started over 4times so this 5th time is there any way I could share my terrible situation involving the fate of my wife and 20yrs of waiting for the outcome of all of Ron's predictions and strait from God himself as well. Obviously not the top of his class in Seminary if true. Her only succeeded in the end of our church service together from then on and has tactically divided the 1 under Christ we were and now everything is an independent dynamic including all the secret BK'S she did by not paying her bills. I've almost lost my house. No matter our financial situation she leaves and gathers with fellow people that only make it harder to accept any reality of Spiritual situation. 33yrs married, everything I've shown became an attack from me on another man and not about God. Weird that I became a control factor when everything from the mosaic law, membership, Ron's own dirty hands are laid on members as Ron's authority under God. Duetetonomy defines Ron & 1000's of others exactly.
He is absolutely terrible at interpretating if in 20yrs and how many books that explains the previous book and I guess was "presumptuous" lol
That's what a teenager is when learning, Ron Weindland & Herbert Armstrong and every single human that comes in God's name and preys on the tithes that are God's and have biblical importance and. We broke Mike, I have no future now and I can explain but yes I'm done. Ron had collected over 80,000.00 of God's tithes, we are unequally yoked and I'm constantly threatened with divorce as opposed to the actual reality and truth. It's as serious as it gets and I've already had a made for tv life that's hard to believe even half but I'm not giving up on my wife especially after my Godly advice as he confirms his word and will thru actions as I meant my vows and my commitment to the covenant of God in marriage. Is the any way to speak to you briefly? Kirrley is exactly who my wife is and has been and went thru. I'm afraid the only possible breakthrough of this programming of Ron's strategy.
I'm also afraid of my wife's security when I'm gone and I might not get that chance. I've almost gave up, development of brain disorders and extreme anxiety and depression related illnesses. My email is lathr173@gmail.com. my name is Bill Chase. 909 908 7373. Anyone with this power of post recovery of the damage of this cult and only confused the real Word with a bunch of linked cover-up excuses or presumptions if your a complete Moran and only deepens the mockery of God by using such a gentle word to describe my financial ruin by speaking behind the back of married woman without my presence but I guess he's extremely lucky I didn't know he infiltrated my home with man's doctrine of God. Mashed me sick to my stomach to think what's really happening with out my knowledge and involving joint finances and especially TITHES.
Please keep Mike, this is Bill and the email associated here ; chasewilliam173@gmail.com is a secondary email but will still work just not checked as often and reading this was like God's hands handing a solution to me when I was at my worst as faith in wife's strength in her Godly purpose over a fleshly scam that only glorifies man with added doctrine and preached scripture out of context to support his own conclusion or "presumptions" how cute he is in his ignorance and deceptive tactics of thought control thru a singular interpretation that was the best fictional pamphlet I've read
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