After he returns to Cincinnati, there will be a few put out of PKG. Sheriff Ron has been patient. While some have responded to his clarion call to pay their tithes, a few holdouts remain. We can't have any of that -- it costs money for Ron and Laura to travel.
Kirrily has followed her article of last week with an analysis comparing "2008 God's Final Witness" against reality. She's uncovering some items I've missed. Here is her piece:
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I have outlined all the obvious errors/failures in Ron’s book – God’s Final Witness. All quotes have been typed by me directly from the book – I have done my best to type exactly as stated in the book. I would suggest any reader follow what I have stated (page numbers and paragraph numbers included for your ease of reference).
Any error would simply be a typo. Emphasis – sometimes mine, sometimes Ron.
As the book itself does not actually contain the dates for the first timeline, or the second timeline, the book in this regard needs to be either true or false when information relating to timelines is combined with the book itself. After all, the book is written by the very same author who delivers the sermons.
For those of you who wish to go into the book to prove the ‘truths’ – go for it, but remember, the very definition of truth given by Ron (as you will see) and of the Bible itself is that “no lie is of the truth”. As I outline all the FALSITIES of the book (even if there were only one) by that very definition, the book is FALSE.
The first few pages of the book concentrate on massive destructive events – thereby setting the ‘theme’ of concentration of the book.
Page 4, first paragraph: “The proof of the validity of my first book, and now this one, is in the timing and the destruction that follows, exactly as both books describe.” So, it is the TIMING that determines it’s validity.
Ron describes events to eventuate as similar to labour pains of a women – contractions get closer together, and more powerful – “such will be part of the proof of what is written here.”Page 4, Paragraph 3: “What we have witnessed since those interviews a year ago will only increase in magnitude and frequency until we come to the last and final stage. This final stage is referred to as the great tribulation, which is prophesied to last for a final three and one half years. It will begin with one third of the United States being destroyed – followed by World War III.” (Well, it has begun for the second time according to Ron nearly 7 months ago – no 1/3 of the US destroyed – FAILED).
Page 6, 3rd Paragraph: Ron states that people can not believe things unless there is proof. That is part of the reason God chose to reveal end time events in the manner that He has – who are people to believe with all the different religions out there?
Page 8, 2nd Paragraph: “Only God Himself can prove what is true by bringing to pass exactly what He has said. Only the next few years can prove whether or not these two books are true and of God. If nothing happens, then you can know positively that this is complete fiction.” WELL, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED ON THE SECOND TRIBULATION YET, SAFE TO SAY – we know it's FICTION.
Page 8, 3rd Paragraph: “This is one of the main reasons these books have been written, so that people can begin to respond to the one Great Creator God when they see these things come to pass.” NOTHING COMING TO PASS YET, NEARLY 7 MONTHS INTO SECOND TRIBULATION. FAILED.
Page 9, 2nd Paragraph: “This period of time will BEGIN with one-third of the United States being destroyed.” – NOPE, NO DESTRUCTION – FAILED.
Page 10, Para 5: “This has much to do with why God is once again – one last time – sending His prophets (His two witnesses) into the world in the most powerful way yet.” – FAILED – What power is being shown? To the WORLD (page 11 para 3)? Again, we are nearly 7 months into this.
Page 11, para 3: “These two witnesses will be the most formidable prophets God has ever used in all 6,000 years of human history.” SPEAKS FOR ITSELF – FAILED, HASN’T HAPPENED.
[Note: For example, our "formidable prophets" fled ideaCity when sickened by a stand-up comic who blasphemed God, abandoning an opportunity to call down a plague on the blasphemer. Actually, I think Ron was more sickened by the favorable reception the audience gave the comic, so he should have called down a plague on them as well. Mike]
Page 16, Para 2: “The other witness will be revealed to the world during the time of the great tribulation – WITHIN the final the and one-half years of man’s era.” – FALSE – 2nd witness revealed during false first time line, and alluded to way before that.
Page 21, Para 3 : “When that seal (7th) is opened, you can rest assured, the final tribulation has arrived. God says that time will last for 3 ½ years. Prophecy shows that one third of the United States will be destroyed after this seal is opened.” OK – 7th Seal opened for the second time, we are now awaiting the supposed 2nd Trumpet – still no 1/3 destruction of the US.
Page 21, last para: “These two will know positively when God gives them this power, and from that time they know that exactly three and one-half years remain.” – well, now Ron is saying his “powers” will not be evident (this is the 2nd time he has ‘received’ his powers mind you) until after the 5th trumpet – another point proven FALSE.
Page 23, last para (this one is the most used) : “….the world will be shocked and in horror on the day that the seventh seal is opened.” The WORLD was NOT (nor were PKG members – either on the opening of the seal for the first or second time). FAILED.
Page 24, first para : “God has given to Jesus Christ the timing for the seals to be opened, and Jesus Christ in turn has given the timing to me.” Maybe a case of Chinese Whispers? Jesus heard from God wrong, or Ron heard wrong from Jesus? FALSE – First timeline (as stated Jesus gave to Ron) FAILED. (Remember, the book said events will happen EXACTLY as written in the 2 books.)
Page 24, para 3: “However, God is going to begin removing the skepticism of the world, especially once the seventh seal is opened.” – Not on the first timeline, and not yet on the second timeline – remember, he said the WORLD – another FAIL.
Page 26/27, Lies: “Lying is the outcome of people being right in their own eyes and stubbornly holding to their own viewpoint, regardless of EVIDENCE to the contrary.” OOOOOH, A TRUTH!!
Page 29, 2nd last para: “God states what should be obvious ‘…no lie is of the truth' 1 John 2:21” OOOoooh, another TRUTH!
Page 34, Para 1: “But when it comes to what you believe, can you admit error when it is pointed out to you? Most people cannot, because interference with one’s personal religious believes is more than they can bear.” Yet another TRUTH!
Page 51, After a number of pages outlining the confusion in the 3 major religions, 2nd para: “This book is the truth!” BY RON'S OWN STANDARDS, NO PART OF THE BOOK SHOULD BE WRONG – I’VE PROVED IT DOES CONTAIN ERRORS – NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH, THIS BOOK IS NOT THE TRUTH, BECAUSE IT CONTAINS VARIOUS LIES/FALSITIES.
Page 51: 3rd Para: “God is about to prove that this book is telling the truth! He will do so with power unleashed beyond any that He has ever used to reveal to man that He is their Creator.” – mmmm. Is God off to a slow start then? Even on the 2nd timeline?
Page 5, Last para: “NOW is the time God has chosen to begin revealing himself fully to this world.” YES, BY GIVING RON A FALSE FIRST TIMELINE, CHANGING THE SECOND ONE FROM THE FIRST (IE. 45-90 DAYS OUT THE WINDOW) AND GETTING OFF TO A VERY SLOW START ON THE SECOND? MMMM. Yes, revealing Himself, and Powerfully so to the World that is for sure – NOT. FAILED.
Page 57, para 3: “God’s 2 end time prophets will exercise great power, both in power displayed on the earth and in power of the revelation of God – more than all other prophets combined.” – First timeline, this most powerful prophet of all time got it wrong. And now nearly 7 months into the second timeline – no power. FAILED.
Page 57, para 4: “As I have stated, I am one of those prophets, and I am also the spokesman of both. That which I am telling you is not of me, it is from the God of Abraham.” SO IT’S NOT OF RON, SO GOD GOT IT WRONG THE FIRST TIME, AND IS NOT SURE WHAT TO DO THE SECOND TIME AROUND. WE’RE ALL WAITING, RON.
Page 58, Para 4: “God will PROVE whom He sends. Just as prophetic events will unfold with increasing power and frequency, so will I increase in power and recognition by others because of the job God has placed before me. It is Gods purpose, and He will do it.” – Again, we are on the 2nd timeline, and nearly 7 months into it. FAILED.
Page 60, Para 1: “The opening of the seventh seal will serve as a warning to the world that the final end time tribulation has come…” – FAILED – 2nd opening of the seventh seal, what warning?
Page 104, last paragraph : “God will humble the Church, and He will humble the world through end time events described in this book. It is by this very means that God will reveal through whom He is now working. Specifically regarding his two end time witnesses, it will be by the power given to them for destruction and plagues, not healing.” – FAILED – Again nearly 7 months into first timeline, no powers (remember, their powers and ministry are meant to go for 1260 days).
Page 104 last paragraph: “Escalating deaths in the leadership of the scattered groups will serve as a witness of who it is through whom God is working. It will not be done through miraculous signs of healing.” (Note: this section is talking of the 5th Thunder of the 6th Seal – we are now meant to be in the 2nd time of duration of the 1st trumpet of the 7th Seal– still no deaths in COG leadership.) FAILED.
Page 107, Paragraph 3: (Note – this is written after the book went to great length to describe Elijah’s petition of God to let the people know he was His servant – and God answered by burning the sacrifice.) “I have also made a petition to the Eternal God of Abraham. My petition is that this first phase of the Fifth Thunder (note: of the 6th Seal) be fulfilled exactly as it is written here.” – FAILED. Twice now we have been in the fifth thunder of the 6th Seal – we are now in the 7th, (for the second time) – petition NOT GRANTED.
Page 110, Para 2: (NOTE: Ron has stated in the past that the thunders will continue on into the great tribulation and increase in intensity – but..) “The Seven Thunders have much to do with how God will reveal his two witnesses. These thunders serve as a PRELUDE to the final tribulation, and the greater manifestation of those 2 witnesses.” – Again, we are in the second tribulation, awaiting 2nd trumpet – no such prelude. FAILED.
Page 111, Para 2: “The answer that I am who I say I am will be given by the events described in both books coming true EXACTLY has I have described. This will be the proof that I am God’s end time witness and spokesman. But before great power is given to me to perform miraculous events similar to those of Moses (but with far greater power), once the seventh seal is opened (note – not delayed until the 5th trumpet of the seventh seal!) and the final three and one half years of worldwide tribulation, God has reserved these seven thunders for me to declare.” FAILED.
Page 111, para 4: “All seven thunders are given as God’s proof that I am his end time prophet.” FAILED – as already stated in his books, thunders are prelude to tribulation. Thunders have not happened (except financial – again, Ron is no different to MANY others out there saying this).
Page 115, last para: “Before the seventh (and final) seal is opened, the Seven Thunders will become so pronounced that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth.” (again, Ron’s petition was that the fifth thunder of the 6th seal be fulfilled exactly as written, to prove he is God’s servant – so this thunder at least should have occurred BEFORE the seventh seal was opened – for the second time. For those who argue that I may not be willing to admit the truth, well I did follow Ron for the first 2 timelines – I think that proves I was walling to admit the truth – shame it turned out to be, yes FALSE.)
Page 118, para 1 (speaking of the first trumpet) : “When we are told that a third of all plant life will be destroyed, that is exactly what it means.” FALSE. 2nd blowing of the first trumpet, no such destruction. Remember, we have already covered the fact that events must occur EXACTLY has written in the book for it to be proven Ron is from God.
[Note: "exactly what it means"? Hmm. So why is Weinland spiritualizing the first trumpet away, saying that the vegetation being consumed is green money? Mike]
Page 118, para 1 “It should also be noted, that in the first trumpet there is fire mingled with blood. Blood means there will be much death when this event occurs. Most of it will be the death of animals and birds, but also a large number of people will die – into the tens of thousands.” FAILED – 2nd blowing of the first trumpet – no destruction, no “event”.
I will leave the remaining trumpets alone, as Ron says we are awaiting the blowing of the second, so no point bringing them up – yet.
Page 143, para 1: “Instead, they choose to hold onto their own religious ideas and beliefs, which are false. Therein is much of the problem and much of the reason why man's self rule must come to an end EXACTLY as described in this book.” – SORRY RON, NOT HAPPENING, EVEN THE SECOND TIME AROUND.
I will also leave out all the information Ron says about God, Jesus etc – as I will leave all that to the Theologians.
Lastly, page 244: “By the fall of 2008, the United States will have collapsed as a world power, or it will have begun its collapse and no longer exist as an independent nation WITHIN SIX MONTHS AFTER THAT TIME. There is a marginal, six-month window of time that God has not yet revealed concerning this specific moment of time. This will be revealed some time soon after the distribution of this book begins.” – FALSE. If this mysterious 6 months of time was revealed shortly after the distribution of the book, I am sure that God would have first let Ron know about the ENTIRE error of the first timeline. FAILED, hasn’t happened.
Well, this was a great way to spend a morning!
For those of you who still believe, willingly ignorant, I do actually understand as I was in your shoes for a time. It takes strength to admit that you were never led by God – it hurts. But, that pain is better than the pain to willingly follow someone who is proven to be false.
If a case like this went to Court, the matter would be closed.
Human nature is a beast in itself, we believe things because we WANT to believe them, for vastly different reasons from individual to individual.
I have undertaken this task not for current believers of Ron Weinland, as nothing can be done for them (please believe me on this – it will save you a lot of heartache, turmoil and arguments – you have to let them go and be there for them in 2012, or whenever Ron finally gives up) but for those investigating the validity of what Ron has to say.
He is false – it’s obvious.
What you do with this information is up to you.
The shame of all of it is, is that I personally believe a lot of what Ron has to say. If only he would admit he is in error – it’s arrogance and pride that prevents him.
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In the course of reviewing Kirrily's piece, I found another gem. On page 58, 3rd paragraph:
"Either I am an eloquent, rationally-sounding lunatic or I am sent from God."Ron is obviously not sent from God. But we have a problem of false choices here. I can go with "lunatic" for sure, but having a bit of trouble with "eloquent" and "rationally-sounding". As far as "eloquent", I've discovered that after removing the embarrassing bits from his sermon describing his experience at ideaCity, most of the edits were removal of "uh"s and overly long pauses. Perhaps I shouldn't criticize, because I wouldn't do any better. But then my job does not require public speaking. As far as "rationally-sounding", perhaps maybe -- at least compared to Yisrayl Hawkins babbling about the "nukular baby".
For any who want to use the two-day fast at the end of January to explain why the Great Tribulation hasn't started, explain the following:
- How the divinely inspired book "2008 God's Final Witness" left room for it to be modified.
- How exactly the thunders have intensified in the 5 months since the fast to humble people to bring them to repentance. Cite statistics, not anecdotes (such as Michael Jackson's death). Also explain how all 7 thunders have intensified.
204 comments:
1 – 200 of 204 Newer› Newest»I'll think of this as the Kirrily Karate chop.
Dill Weed
Just another thought, it is interesting to note that Ron states the validity of the book is due to TIMING.
Well, there is no actual timing (ie. dates, timeframes etc) written in the book.
The way it is written, and states for example the Thunders are a PRELUDE to tribulation, it would be reasonable to assume that the thunders should happen in order (ie. at least first phase of fifth thunder to occur prior to seventh seal - Ron's petition of God failed).
Well - as there is no timing whatsoever in the books, and Ron has stated in sermons that Thunders will NOT happen in order, and take 'turns' in thundering power, then how are you meant to use timing to prove whether the book is true or false? Again, when the book contains no timing? And timings given in his sermons altogether changed once, and other timings keep shifting.
OK - so the only timing at all is given in Rons sermons and interviews.
As mentioned by me in another post here, if timing is one of the things to prove the validity of the book, then why did another COG come up with the second timeline BEFORE Ron?
As Ron states that God gave Jesus the TIMING, then Jesus gave the TIMING to Ron (Ron has stated it can not be figured out, that God has to give it, but then when the other COG came up with it first, said it was not rocket science - oh boy, more contradictions) - then why would Jesus give Ron the wrong timing, then give the correct timing (ie. timeline no. 2) to another COG, then tell Ron about it afterwards so he can swap over to it.
Oh, it goes on and on.
Remember, GFW states that the purpose of the book is to reveal to the WORLD who God is working through, and begin to reveal Himself.
In other words, this means God decided to prove to the WORLD, Ron is His prophet, by giving Ron a false first timeline. Giving the second timeline to another COG, then showing Ron the error of his first timeline, giving him the second timeline so he can swap over to it AFTER it was delivered to a completely different COG FIRST (oh yes, it can only be GIVEN by God, yet it's not rocket science so Mike also figured it out all by himself).
Again, the TIMING is what is meant to validate the book, as the book itself says - yet there is no timing in the book - just in the sermons. Again, the timing in sermons has changed, and any timing that was evident in the book (ie. thunder order etc) have now been discounted by Ron in the sermons.
We know who the author of confusion is, don't we.
Kirrily, you mention those investigating Ron in contrast to those who believe him. I know you didn't overlook this, but you do know that those who believe Weinland did quite a bit of reading and research. Nobody in the right mind simply picks up a prophesy book, then decides "I'm believing this book because it claims to be from God and that's all there is to it, then reads it. As a general rule, those who convert from one belief to another are trying to find truth. Those not searching for truth will not care about investigating the beliefs handed down to them and simply except them and put them in whatever corners of their lives they see fit. It is some of those people who condemn anything else other than their beliefs, whether it be truth or not. What you quoted from the book is yet to happen. I would not pretend I don't understand why you believe what you do. As for me, worry not. My life's great, Ron did nothing wrong to it. I write, read, research, value family and God's laws, like music, try to play guitar, etc. People around me have always known I do a lot of searching and come up with oppinions that are often uncommon but as they sometimes see, logical..
Also, Observer figured out my age more or less. I'm 20, give or take a few. I write poetry too. I have over 100 that I am still working on. They're not ready and nobody has read them.
Peace to you.
WO wrote:
"What you quoted from the book is yet to happen."
Wait, I'm lost. Are you pro-RW or not? I haven't been around the comments long enough to know yours and Observer's stances. From that statement, obviously you don't believe in Ronald Weinland. His entire ministry is about THAT stuff already happening. Are we in the tribulation, or aren't we? If we are, then everything Kirrily quoted should be HISTORY by now, but it is not.
I'd like to think that people would investigate extraordinary claims, such as the ones Weinland has made, before believing them.
But I've come to the conclusion that many believe that Ron's a prophet of God without checking out the rest of the book thoroughly. They're looking for someone with answers and when someone claims to have them, they won't look under the hood before driving it off the lot.
WO, you say that you're different, and investigated carefully. So tell me, since 2008 GFW clearly states that the thunders are a prelude to the great tribulation, then the thunders must have intensified before it began. Please summarize your investigation, beginning with the first phase of the 5th thunder. Who exactly are these 5 mininsters? When and how did they die?
WO,
"What you quoted from the book is yet to happen."
Um, er, well, I don't know how to break this to you, but...um, well....that's my point - Ron says everything up to and including the first trumpet HAS happened (ie. just one example, first trumpet occurred 14th Dec 08 (I think 14th was it?? - Dec 08 anyway).
Your comments (the others I did not understand ie. investigating as opposed to believing?? what the?? - and to be honest, well, I'm lost for words) reveals a certain mindset of PKG'ers - now thanks to you, obvious to all. No need for me to say any more here on that.
Like I said in my post, nothing can be done for those who are following RW - again, thanks to you, WO, your comments are proof of this.
I don't know what else to say here - even I am a bit shocked, truly - dumbounded even. (;-)) In fact, I don't think there is anything else TO say.
Thanks WO - have a great day
(if you are in the USA, hope you had a great 4th!).
All,
please read my posts in the previous post (effects of pkg) section... I've followed on there from important points made....
Most people think they do a lot of research before choosing another religon. I'm not singling you out here. There are limits on how far we can investigate.
What they do is read what the belief system has to offer and try to undertand it to the best of their ability. ULTIMATELY< one gets to the point where it is too fatiguing or difficult (Hebrew and Greek) to investigate further.
If you think about that you'll recognize it is true.
AT THAT POINT, you are then trusting someone else to tell you what God says and God meant.
In the case with Ron, you have that, and this: RON telling you what God tells him in his mind. AND you have no way to verify if Ron is telling the truth OTHER THAN determining if what he has said happens. (Does what he says line up with the what the bible says? I don't want to talk scripture - there's no end to intrepretations. AND also, are repeated explanations necessary to explain the failure of prior predictions or statements. People can be duped, after all.
BUT there is more, Ron and others claiming to speak with/for God - 'reveal it as God reveals it to them' - this allows for a certain flexibility - so that if something they said doesn't happen they can 'explain' why.
When does explanation turn into someone pulling the wool over your eyes. You'll have to be the judge of that.
I was going to list somethings, but decided against it.
Dill Weed
Why is it that Ron NEEDS to go to Hawaii? Aren't there other churches in the mainland that he should be visiting? Just another excuse for a lavish vacation in what he calls the great tribulation. And he's going to go back and disfellowship people because they won't send him money so he can tan his pale hide on a beach in Hawaii? I think the church deserves a full accounting of every dollar he spent there. How much for drinks, luaus, spas, snorkeling, etc.
Come on Ron, we're in a recession and the great tribulation! Where's the sackcloth?
Here's a hotlink straight to a series of comments by Kirrily in my previous post. Observer, perhaps your elder is different than Wayne Matthews. Seems that despite his amiable demeanor, Wayne has a serious sheriffing side.
Mark, the church already has an accounting of what Ron spent on the beaches of Hawaii. Ron is the church. He's in charge, and it requires a 75% vote of his hand-picked elders to replace him.
A bit more about whether PKG members really investigate the statements in the book, etc before joining. Ron himself has often stated that he believed the Armstrongism package immediately when it was handed to him by his father. There was no need for him to research it in scripture -- God gives it in the mind.
I believe the same process takes place with his followers. When Kirrily says that her piece was not directed to Weinland's current followers, I totally agree with her -- they are blinded from the facts by their faith in their spiritual idol Ron. I doubt that my blog has persuaded any PKG member to leave, and I think a number of members have read it (including those with elder and evangelist rank).
On the other hand, someone who is considering joining might check into Weinland for another viewpoint and be saved. That has happened.
Mike, Weinland did say he excepted truthh almost instantly after hearing them because God gavve them to his mind. I had the same experience but I had not turned to full obedience right away even though I thought I did. However I got proof. Armstrong's articles proved themselves to me while other articles never did. There is much more to learn and read, and I am getting around to it. If I could not have something proven I would question it: the fast, no trumpet 2 on July 16 being examples. However, I was given understanding.
Kirrily, thanks for wishing me a happy July 4. I'm a Canadian and had my day 3 days earlier. I do want to answer some of the questions on the last post. I never did isolate myself and limit contact to people who share my oppinions, and I never will. I am a few years younger or older than twenty, and in the case of being a few years younger there's a reason why I'm not baptized.
To others thinking I'm an eldar, pre-1994 WCG member, and anything else I may have not remembered reading stop making alagations of which you have no proof. I say truly that they are all false. I never believed a denomination fully. I have read, feel I have proof, and act upon what I read and listen. That is all.
WO, my point exactly. Except how do you know that it was God who put this stuff in your mind? Doesn't Satan (or Saytin if you prefer) have the same power?
With regard to Armstrong's articles providing proof: There are hundreds of splinters of Armstrongism, some claiming to the the one true church following Armstrongism but believing some things differently. If your faith in Armstrongism is strong enough, test it out by visiting some sites who have a different point of view. The links are on the right side of my blog.
As far as who you are, I don't think you're an elder. I believe your age, although I'm inclined to take a few years from 20 rather than give them. I urge you to investigate quite a bit more before getting involved with PKG.
I think it would be difficult for a PKG COG member to be convinced by us here that Ron is wrong for the following reasons.
1. We get invested in our beleifs and most of come to equate those beliefs with ourselves. Meaning, if we percieve that someone is questioning our beliefs then they are percived as quesitoning or attacking us. That's why the language used is so important.
2. Even if the language used to probe the accuracy of one's religous beliefs is carefully chosen, there is still this - assuming the individual recognizes some of their religous beliefs are incorrect or, perhaps even that they don't have the 'truth', then that individual is suddenly left without a hope for salvation - producing a spiritual or religous vacuum or 'crisis'.
3. As humans, we don't often change our beliefs in front of an audience. It is a more private thing.
Having one's beliefs challenged is very threatening for the reasons described above and probably more. Going from certainty that your future is garaunteed to the uncertainty of not knowing is frightening. Even if confronted with obviously incorrect beliefs people hold onto them, in fact, they often become more entrenched in them.
At best, we can provide information, in a supportive way. I think if a member actually took on answering questioned raised here without relying on 'God gave me understanding' then one is confronted with actually constructing an explanation or rebuttal dependent on facts. That analysis itself would threaten their belief in Ron and is exactly why Ron discourages questioning and deflects and frustrates inquiry with 'I am God's prophet!' and God is gradually revealing the 'truth' to me (even though it has been incorrect and contradictory).
It might be interesting to attempt that in a post making allowances for Ron's explanations or lack thereof.
Dill Weed
Kirrily did a good job (as an 'unbeliever') in her post. Imagine a member having to confront those issues or even Ron himself.
I noticed this and hope it would be added.
Page 21, last para: “These two will know positively when God gives them this power, and FROM THAT TIME they know that exactly three and one-half years remain.”
Ron has said the Two Witness would not mistake recieving their powers AND that from then 3 1/2 yrs would remain. Ron said in his inspired book that the Witnesses would recieve their powers at THE BEGINNING of their ministry - not 'after the 5th Trumpet.'
Dill Weed
wo
"i am a few years younger or older than twenty"
dude! why so cryptic?
I'm 41. See, that wasn't hard. I bet you can say your age. Go ahead and try....sure you can.
LOL
Mike guessed it. He took a few years away from 20. I don't care too much if you find my age as long as people still treat me the same way. However I would like to keep this guessing game going. Nothing wrong with a bit of fun here ay?
wo,
Let me just say this:
When I was your age I thought I knew all I needed to know.
Now, I'm 41 years old and realize I didn't know squat at that age. I've learned to be more skeptical and less naive.
I've also learned what it is to be truly humble, how to admit when I'm wrong and how to determine what is a well planned scam, ie global warming and rw.
As far as religion goes, always verify what they say versus what the bible says. That is the only path to truth.
todd, thanks for the advice. There are some things worth investigating for oneself, and religion is one of them. I know what you mean about global warming. We've had it in a way in the Medieval Warming Period and that it is being used to add more taxes like Carbon taxes: (Canadian Liberal Leader campaigned for it and was about to set up three parties to overthrow the party that one, the Conservatives Crazy stuff). Anyway, a Green Party could have a Environment minister in Cabinet but that's as far as it should go as Greens have environmental plans but not many plans for much else. Anyway, another subject for another place. Sorry about that Mike.
P.S. I have to add Ron in to this to make this post legal for this blog. I was especially excited when reading the Wonderful World Tomorrow article. It talked about how even a human goverment who established world peace could not solve problems that have nothing to do with us but still effect us. Changing weather patterns, desert turning to fertile land, and land beneath oceans being reclaimed are a few trends I was excited about in addition to the 10 commandments being followed by all.
Weinland Observer: Hopefully none of us "older and wiser??" commenters will discount what you say because of your age. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" and that can happen at any age. There are many older people with very little wisdom unfortunately. Your comments demonstrate a high degree of thoughtful logic and, I might add, you handle your distractors with a great deal of patience. I assume that the reason you are not baptized is because you have not reached the age of majority in your particular location yet. This is also probably why you have not been introduced to other members of the Church, etc.. I believe that God has given you a greater measure of grace for that reason. Don't let it go to your head : ) and you should be fine.
To continue with your guessing game .... are you a Canadian "ay" or a Canadian "hey"?
Observer, I'm a Canadian ay. I would just post my age on the spot by now as I'm sure people will still get me thinking and studying here. However I started a game so I can't lie because I will then need to repent of ending what has been an interesting little game. Here are some thoughts. I haven't told many a lot about what I believe. I just gave explanations about some of the things I read and learned. None seamed too interested so I left it at that. I prayed about what to say to people and I feel I have an indication that I am to say little until a physical event occurs. I pray I'm doing what's right, and continuing to repent and fight battles with self is the heart and core. Is there anything you think I am not understanding or anything I should be doing and not be doing that you know of having read my postings?
Dill,
You have an awesome and very loving way of explaining things. Your posts here have made me think along lines I have not before - thankyou.
The patience both yourself and Mike display is amazing - I hope to develop that same patience (and soon).
But for now, with WO's and O's comments - I don't know what to say at all (for once!) - except to repeat that nothing can be done for current members, NOTHING - we have now seen what can happen to the mind. It really is extraordinary, and here on this blog, we have seen it at its best.
WO - I have never left Australia, my husband has been trying to get me over to New Zealand for years (I keep making excuses - not afraid of flying, just the thought about going to another country is, I don't know, just makes me nervous!) - and we haven't been yet!!
Apparently Australia is VERY flat (not to me!!) and I have not seen a real mountain yet.
New Zealand has many and beautiful mountains, which I have been told are 4 times as high as the largest here in Australia.
Apparently Canada has mountains that would dwarf New Zealands!
Also, if it gets below 25 degrees, I am FREEZING!! (Too used to the beach and the sun where I live!).
Sorry to go on with this small talk, but given everything else I have said - well, can't really say anything else.
Have a great day all!!
Weinland Observer: Having read your posts you seem to have a very good understanding of the Truths as well as the "changes". You are probably doing right by not sharing too much with people. My experience is that it usually makes them angry. Just answer anything they ask in simple terms and pray for wisdom. I'll be praying for you as well. I understand what it's like to be on your own but, as I've said, you are not alone. : )
Dill Weed, great comment.
Kirrily, you've got the right idea. Observer and WO have nothing to say in response to the points you made in the post -- their justification for their beliefs is based on the latest statements from the mouth of their spiritual idol Ron Weinland.
But somewhere along the line it may make a difference for someone about to be ensnared in PKG. And you might not ever hear that it made a difference. In any case, I'd like to think that this effort has been of some value to you for its own sake.
The campaign is long, and the victories are few. But there are victories.
Mike: At the risk of sounding cruel, I haven't responded to Kirrily's "arguments" because none of them are relevant. The things marked as "failed" cannot be considered failed yet because there is still time for them to happen. As far as the "witness powers" that you keep bringing up .... they will be exercised later, according to God's timing and purpose, not to prove, wow, or inspire. This does not mean that the witnesses don't have them already. Luckily these powers have not been given to some of the commenters or their could be a few dead bodies by now. The only comment that Kirrily has brought up that could cause a person to question is the one concerning the "horror on the day that the 7th seal is opened". Ron has already addressed this to my satisfaction. The thunders carry through the 6th and 7th seal and, as Ron has said, "those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will realize that they are increasing.
Having said all this, I don't expect it to make any impression on you or anyone else, other than to give you more ammunition to point out how ridiculous and brainwashed I am. I sincerely hope that Kirrily's arguments do not hinder someone else from finding the truth because it will be a sad thing to have to recognize the harm you have done to another person. Giving up the Truth after having gone so far is sad enough.
Thanks!
Kirrily's impatient to develop patience. : D
I liked your post so much Kirrily, I linked it from my blog. Great job! (I pictured you at your kitchen table with a highlighted book, a cup of coffee and a scowl on your face.) : D
Mike the work you've done here and Kirrily's piece and others like them won't free people outright, BUT it does provide them information, a seed, and I have no doubt that that stays with them and as a consequence improves the chance that they'll begin to detect Ron's attempted deceptions.
Dill Weed
Kirrily, I recommend you travel! It's a great experience. Yes the Rocky Mountains are very tall. I live in Atlantic Canada but have been to Toronto and wish to travel more in the future. I've been out of Canada in the past and lived outside of it. If I get in to that that will be another topic which would start a conversation that would be interesting but one that would be unrelated to this blog. Slightly off topic but had to respond. I actually learned a lot from you, believe it or not.
Observer, thanks in advance for your prayers. I have a good life and a lot of friends, etc but would love meeting someone from cog-pkg. If you wanted to you could talk on Weinland Witness and just post to Weinland Observer. Then again, maybe that needs not happened as we seam to be able to talk here for the most part with the exception of my new email which I created for cog-pkg contact being banned from this blog curtesy of Mike who believes he has good intentions, yes you read that Mike and I sincerely meant it.
Lastly Mike. Worry not. By the time I'm 18 we should be seeing the destruction from China and Russia and sixth trumpet events, especially if the time, times, and half a time info I posted is close to correct. I would smell something fishy if that wasn't happening. For now, life's great physically.
Later all!
The things marked as "failed" cannot be considered failed yet because there is still time for them to happen.
It's obvious that you've chosen not to study "2008 GFW". Certain things were to happen before the opening of the 7th sealing, such as an intensifying of the thunders. (No one said the thunders had to end at the 7th seal, just that all 7 of them had to intensify prior to the 7th seal, which they haven't) Particularly the 1st phase of the 5th thunder. I understand totally that you wish to ignore this.
Tell me this:
Since 2005, when have we had a weather event in the US exceeding that of Hurricane Katrina?
Have we had an earthquake in the US exceding the damage of the tsunami of 2004?
Since 2001, when have we had a terrorist event in the US exceding that of 9/11?
At some time such events will occur. Eventually, all the competing COG ministers will die, including the specific 5 that Weinland named. But it won't happen in time to validate Weinland as a prophet of God. That ship has already sailed. And Weinland might die before they do. After all, he's 60 years old and has already has experienced one heart attack.
Luckily these powers have not been given to some of the commenters or their could be a few dead bodies by now. Wow!! I guess I should retract my earlier statement that I could meet with certain PKG members without fear of personal harm. Tell me, since Weinland does have the powers -- right? Why am I not dead already, since his death curses clearly apply to me?
And I sincerely hope that Kirrily's arguments do save at least one person from becoming ensnared in the "truth". And on the off chance that they help someone already ensnared in the "truth" realize that they're following an insane lying lunatic, that would be totally awesome.
I hope he likes fish.
That is all.
Dill Weed
WO:
I'm putting your age at 16 or 17. Maybe 15, but probably older. According to your statement, you're not 18 which is what I suspected. As far at the 6th trumpet, my calculations are that it has to occur by May 1, 2011 (has to last a year, a month, and a day prior to the return of Christ. Right?)
As far as my intentions regarding the publication of your email address, I think I've well stated those in private communication.
I have a suspicion that your parents are not aware of your interest in Weinland. I won't bother suggesting that you talk to them about it, because I know you won't. You're of an age where you're starting to exercise some independence and think for yourself. I just hope that you'll do that, for real, and not turn it over to some old deluded bald guy.
Mike: The commenters I was referring to were not WO or myself. You would be safe in my company. : ) Just for the record though, Mike, Ron didn't specify you in the "death curse" did he?
The 5th thunder is made up of three parts but Ron has said that they are not listed in any particular order. Also, all of the thunders did not have to intensify before the 7th seal, just the thunders in general. And the intensifying did not necessarily mean in magnitude but in a combination of scope and quantity. This could include the number of deaths but also the cost due to damage, etc. and yes I do believe that there has been an intensifying. The thunders will not only affect the USA since Ron cites the tsunami as an example of a thunder and it happened in Asia.
The commenters I was referring to were not WO or myself. Then I'm mystified as to which commenters you are referring.
Just for the record though, Mike, Ron didn't specify you in the "death curse" did he? Not by name. But since I've been his most active critic for over a year now, who in the heck else could he be referring to?? Ron's death curse clearly applies to:
Your's Truly
Dill Weed
Jack
Gavin Rumney of Ambassador Watch
Bob Thiel of Cogwriter
And while these mysterious commenters did not get Witness powers, Ron did get these powers, right? So why am I still alive?
The 5th thunder is made up of three parts but Ron has said that they are not listed in any particular order. He did list the phases in a particular order. And stated that the "first phase" would prove him as a prophet of God. And that this would happen "early on".
Since these ministers are still alive, now 2 1/2 years since the publication of his book and well after both openings of the 7th seal, Weinland has not been proven a prophet of God. It's well past "early on". Too late for an intensifying of this thunder prior to the opening of the 7th seal.
And BTW, the other two phases did not intensify either prior to the opening of the 7th seal (either time). And the few celebs we've had in the past couple of weeks don't count, either.
Also, all of the thunders did not have to intensify before the 7th seal, just the thunders in general.
Ron said on page 115 of "2008 GFW":
"During the Sixth Seal, all Seven Thunders will be getting progressively louder." That's "all seven" not a "general intensifying". Neither of which have happened. Just the normal background rumbling. If you disagree, cite reliable statistics -- not just anecdotes of recent events.
Oh, and by the way. Note the title of the 4th chapter of "2008 GFW"
It's
THE SEVEN THUNDERS OF THE 6TH SEAL
And no, still not saying that the thunders had to end with the 7th Seal. Just that they had to start before.
Mike, we have a winner. I'm 15 almost 16. From what Weinland hinted Russia and China could start their part in events in the last six months when describing a bit about the time, times, and half a time. This means that it would occur starting on Nov. 29, 2011. I did talk to Weinland about my parents and others a little bit. It's not a common discussion I have but I do quote him every once in a while but in a matter of fact way. I've enjoyed talking about him here though and have stated other reasons why I come here.
Dill Weed, don't worry. I love fish. Specifically I like Atlantic Salmon which I eat from time to time and lobster which I don't eat much of. The only thing I can't stand is shrimp as it tastes more like a vegetable than a fish. I hope that if anything I smell something fishy but not shrimpy. Then again, maybe fish and shrimp smell the same That's FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
GULP!
I'm second on THE LIST!
I'm pickled for sure!
Dill Weed
WO: Just curious; are you an IB student? By the way, shrimp, shellfish and lobster are classified as unclean according to the Bible
"I'm 15 almost 16."
Yeah, that's about the age that I started really listening to and believing the end of the world was imminent according to Herbert W. Armstrong. I started reading all the church booklets, which my parents were more than happy to furnish for me.
Trust me, 10 years from now you will look back on this time and see how young and impressionable you were. I think you will find your way. I know you will. You have a zeal to know God.
Ron doesn't have the answers though. He's a delusional man. He's convinced hundreds of people, maybe even thousands, to give him 10% of their money so that he can jet set around the world living the high life while showing no love or compassion to the members of the church. It's all about him.
"By the way, shrimp, shellfish and lobster are classified as unclean according to the Bible"
...according to the Old Covenant but were pronounced clean by God in the New Covenant. Acts 10:15.
Dill Weed, you probably should have been first on the list. You are the champion at mocking. I particularly loved your advice to Laura to breathe on Ron's eggs a bit longer ;)
WO: Please educate me. According to Prophesied End Time, page 59, the 6th trumpet is to last a year, a month and a day, right? That puts the 6th trumpet at no later than May1 of 2011. Otherwise, where does the year + month + day go. Oh, never mind -- Ron will squeeze it in somehow.
BTW, I don't care whether shrimp or lobster are unclean. Since I grew up not eating it, I have the insectoid yuck factor to overcome. But if you like it, go for it.
Mark: God declared Gentiles clean. Jesus didn't die to sanctify pigs and shellfish.
I have spoken with my mother this morning. She does not have internet, so she asked me to share her story of her disfellowshipping.
She does not recall the date, but I know it was prior to the Feast of 08 because she was not there with me.
After the failure of the first timeline, my mother stayed for a while, then left.
Yes - believe it or not, I sort of dobbed my mother in to Wayne myself (Wayne, Chris and I were very close - I told Wayne EVERYTHING).
After speaking with Wayne, and telling him that I thought that mum no longer believed Ron, Wayne called my mother directly.
I heard both sides of the story afterwards - from both mum and Wayne, and they both matched.
Remember, I still entirely believed Ron.
Here is what happened in the conversation between my mother and Wayne.
Wayne called my mother, and my mother was with some friends. My mother stated this, yet Wayne kept talking.
My mother started to cry, and Wayne asked her if she still believed that Ron was Gods Witness and Prophet.
My mother asked about the scripture of how you know if a person is God's prophet or not, about the things which they prophesy coming to pass (help me out here someone - don't know where that scripture is) - and mum asked Wayne about this scripture.
Wayne said that belief that Ron is who he says he is comes from GOD HIMSELF, and that if mum no longer believed RON, then she did not believe GOD HIMSELF (note he completely ignored the scripture mum quoted).
Wayne then proceeded to tell mum that she had disfellowshipped herself, and that if she had not, he would have. He also informed her than she had lost Gods spirit, and was now on her own.
He then proceeded to tell her not to contact any member of PKG (except me as I am her daughter).
End of conversation.
I was sad for mum, because I couldn't believe she was 'giving up' - I believed then that mum had never been called (like I was - because I was sticking around and still believed Ron despite the evidence - again, look at the MINDSET here!! Shocking isn't it!)
At the time, I found nothing wrong whatsoever with what Wayne did - ignoring an actual scripture a member brings up, honestly and sincerely asking 'why' - was promptly classed as disfellowshipping herself.
Ron made a petition of God in GFW, similar to that Elijah made in 1 Kings 18, that the first phase of the fifth thunder would come to pass. Ron made the petition in the book, and has made the petition numerous times. IT HAS BEEN DENIED. (Remember, I have shown GFW states thunders are a PRELUDE to the tribulation).
I would like to take a note out of Elijahs experience in 1 Kings 18:27, and say this to Ron (of God not granting his petition):-
"Shout louder!" he said (I say!). "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in tought, or busy, or travelling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened".
So Ron, shout LOUDER, GOD IS NOT HEARING YOU!!
Maybe Ron is too busy mocking his mockers.
I will close this post by simply repeating:-
Timing is the thing which the world will look at to validate the book. But the book contains no timing, no order (except everything up to the 6th seal that is) - and timing given in sermons keeps changing.
Again, we know who the author of confusion is, don't we.
WO,
I appreciate your good nature.
The best way to sharpen one's thinking is to tackle the issues head on. That means addressing the specific issues raised - all of them. That's just advice for the future. To make a persuasive case address each issue one by one. (You needn't do that here though because we are not debating.) In general, I recommend against continuing to make a case for a 'side' while leaving points previously raised untouched. Also, it is important to allow your beliefs to be tested and perhaps refined by new information. Just some friendly advice from a friendly person.
Now for a little Dill Weed humor...
I figured it out. The seventh seal is reversible! ; D
WO, are you ready to start tithing on your allowance or paper route money? : O
To quote Kirrily, quoting Ron, quoting God (consider the significance of this):
“Before the seventh (and final) seal is opened, the Seven Thunders will become so pronounced that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth.”
Well, I think we have to acknowledge that this hasn't happened the way Kirrily quoted Ron quoted God saying it would.
You should see the way out for Ron in the quote above. See it?
"in the ears of anyone willing to admit the truth."
Hmmm. Slippery, that. (WO, that's weasal language. Language THAT appears to commit but doesn't.) And then there's the need for Ron to explain that the thunders are actually thundering to members. Whaaa??? Those are the people willing to admit the thunders are thundering. The thunders aren't roaring loudly enough to prevent the need for explanations from Ron that they are actually thundering.
*Yawn*
It's a little early to be concerned about China and Russia. There lots of stuff that's got to happen before then....
And that raises the question of time which is TICK TOCK ticking away for the proof of a prophet.
Dill Weed, serving food for thought.
Kirrily, I believe the verse you're looking for is Deut. 18:20-22.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Discerning lady, your mum.
Yes, she is (I know that now!).
Thanks Mike.
Dill, thanks for that - now I'm hungry :-)
Me again,
Check out Dill's blog, I have just noticed a post (written by me) giving Ron's explanation of the true meaning of the words 'TIMING' and 'EXACTLY'.
If only I had realised the TRUE meanings of these words earlier.
Mike: The commenters that I was referring to earlier are the ones who though that Ron should exercise his powers and zap Rick Miller and/or the audience at Idea City for "ticking him off". Sorry, I thought that was fairly obvious.
When you said "Luckily these powers have not been given to some of the commenters or their could be a few dead bodies by now.", I took it you to mean it lucky that certain commenters didn't have powers. Not that it was lucky that it hadn't been exercised against commenters.
But according to your explanation, I'd be toast too. If you'd read the post, you'd see that I added the following to what Kirrily said:
"[Note: For example, our "formidable prophets" fled ideaCity when sickened by a stand-up comic who blasphemed God, abandoning an opportunity to call down a plague on the blasphemer. Actually, I think Ron was more sickened by the favorable reception the audience gave the comic, so he should have called down a plague on them as well. Mike]"
While I'm more on the criticizing side, I'm happy to through in some mockery when the opportunity presents.
But I think the criticizing would be enough to put me on Ronnie's death list. I exposed the IRS criminal investigation, and that was used by at least one person to stay away from PKG. I published the pictures and $381,000 value of his house on the golf course, and at least one member used it as part of the reason to leave.
No those things don't make him a false prophet. But I have to ask, why did Weinland ever think that the Two Witnesses would need a Swiss bank account, with all the powers they'd be given?
Observer, I had to look up what an IB student was, I'm not one. However I have around a 90 average. My best subjects are Social Studies and French! I'm not bad at the rest either. You just reminded me of those three foods being uncleaned as this had slipped my mind. In any case, I haven't eaten them for over a year so I'll just continue with that. Thanks for reminding me. I do want to ask you whether you have met or talked to anyone being called at an age such as mine. I know Ron talked about it a few times around a year ago. Hey feel free to tell Ron and others about me if you wish. Seeing and hearing about people being called seams to help him greatly in doing his job. I'm not saying you need to or anything like that. Just a thought.
Dill Weed, a tithe isn't from what you are given but from what you earn. In any case, you can't transfer money without permission legally before age 18. You do have a good sence of humor. Just curious, how did you pick your username?
Mike, the sixth trumpet reflects Russia and China being ready for a month and a year and a day. I wonder whether it's a Gregorian year, Hebrew Calendar year, or 360 day year. The thunders have been explained several times in different ways by 2 different people on this blog. Lastly, let me take a wild guess I will probably be a main subject in your next post. What you found out about me today must have been interesting, or did you suspect this earlier on.
Mark, if you somehow believe the New Testament has to state something for it to apply, do you even look at the Old Testament? According to your ideas, there is no need for you to do so. Think on that. I'll have a good life for sure.
WO:
I made my calculation based on the 360-day prophetic year. A year + a month + a day = 391 days. And the 5th trumpet has to last at least 5 prophetic months (150 days) according to Ron's books. Means the 5th trumpet has to sound no later than time + half-a-time plus 1 day before Christ's return. Or December of next year.
No, I hadn't planned on using you as a topic for a blog post. And still don't.
After reading Kirrily's write-up and summary of Ron Weinland's failed predictions and prophecies, it brings the point home to me that he is really out there, more than I ever thought.
I was never too familiar with him, I heard his name a few times when I attended UCG.
I've heard he was O.K. in his earlier years.
My question is this: Does anybody know if there was a particular period in his life when he changed into what he is now?
Because it seems that somewhere along the way, he kind of "snapped".
RKPDRMR, Weinland began recieving prophesies in 1998 or 1997, I can't quite remember which year. He left UCG due to the fact that it had around 5 million dollars unaccounted for. Then he realized that God wasn't working anywhere as he talked in past sermons about how he and others in his congregation visited various feast sites but found that nowhere were the 18 truths restored by Armstrong being believed. Once he stated in a sermon, End Time Elijah I think, that he believed LCG was getting on trackbut that they started going offbase by fasting for miracles and not excepting Herbert W Armstrong as the endtime Elijah.
Some time before this in 1998, cog-pkg kept their first Feast. At that time truths such as the church falling asleep p spiritually, being separated from God etc, along with the identity of the Man Of Sin, and other. He then fired some directors or The Bord as this is not propper church government. I'm not at the point where I understand exactly when Ron began to know the timing. I think after 9/11 he stated sometime in 2006 that 7 years afterr 9/11 it was possible for Tribulation to start. Hope this helps!
Weinland Observer: You're up early! You have done your research well and have a great mind for remembering details. After the WWCG was spewed out of God's mouth (Dec 17th 1994) there was a certain protection given to part of it for 3 1/2 years. This is described in the Book of Revelation 12: 13-17 where it refers to another "time, times and half time. PKG began at Pentecost 1998.
IB is only offered in certain schools or else I'm sure that you would be in the program. One more question for the "game" ... are you "from away". I'm not.
I think that the best plan would be for me to speak to the elder in charge of your area to find out if, under the circumstances, ie your age, it would be all right to introduce you to some other members. I know that there is at least one in every province. Take care .
Mike: I think you still have it wrong ... being one of the commenters I was referring to, you would not be "toast" you would be doing the "toasting". Anyway, I wasn't really serious when I said it. : )
Now you've got me really confused. I'm not doing any "toasting", unlike Ron & Laura I don't breathe fire or any such spiritualized equivalent.
Ron didn't fire the board members as he didn't have the power to do that directly. What he did was to disfellowship them to make them ineligible in a naked power play.
As far as accounting for $5 million, what about Ron? He's probably had more than that pass through his hands since he took control of "the Church of God, Inc." Has there ever been an independent audit of the church's books?
Mike: One last try .... since some of you thought Ron should exercise his "witness powers" and zap some people at Idea City rather than "run away", I am assuming that this is what you would have done in his position.
Observer, nice understanding of the timezones and picking up on when I got up. I do a lot of research for sure and have always kept an open mind. I believe God was preparing me to be called before I was called by showing me things such as the fact that religion always gets distorted by human beings, that many believe something but feel free to change it around when convenient, that no current government is ever true to its word, that those who want peace or claim to want it want it on their terms, etc. As for being from away, I wasn't born in Canada. You got that right. I do live there now. I live in New Brunswick, Moncton specifically. Thanks. Go ahead and ask to see what can be arranged.
Mike, I have a good feeling that Cog-pkg's budget consists of google ads, renting places for services, and Feast Sites. Also, if Weinland wanted money specifically he wouldn't have fired the bord but would have kept them so that he could recieve more tithes. That reminds me of a post on Weinland watch that had a link of an interview this COG-related newspaper called The Journal. I tried to read the interview but it was a subscription newspaper. I don't much care for subscribing to it but I would like to read the interview if anyone has a link to it.
WO,
I chose Dill Weed because it would contradictory to my online persona.
WO, I have doubts about your age. You possess knowledge about COG history that are rather obscure and that would really not be of interest to an average believer, much lees a teen and you speak rather fluidly about them. (You may just be above average!) But oddly, you do not take head on the staggering challenges presented to Ron's legitimacy, to things that cast serious doubt on his credibility, and continue to 'believe'.
Just some observations. I would say if you are a teen you are definitely above average, but that that contradicts your reasoning here. I'm OK with you whatever age you maybe.
Dill Weed
Dill Weed, I am 15. No reason to lie about it. I do know a lot of the church history and I had always thought that most in the Church know it, pre-apostacy WCG and Cog-PKG specifically, not others who probably don't even know the history of their denominations much less have concern as to whether they have proof of the true religion.
I absorb a lot from any book I read. The first thing I do as I read and when I'm done is make a mental list of what I know and should remember having read a book. I apply this to ssermons as well and could basically remember almost each sermon and sermon series and have a summary of the key points in my head. When it all comes down to it, a book of knollege is designed to prove various conclusions by expounding on them. I keep this in mind when writing, whether it is a story, poem, persuasive paragraph, etc.
As for thunders and other evidence they have been explained so many times it's not even funny. Oh wait, it is. One person's villain is another person's hero. One person's trash is another person's treasure. One person's bogus is another person's truth. People will believe what they believe. Only God can reveal truth beyond denial and this is what will happen. Ron knows more about the timing than he is permitted to give at this point in time. Time, times, and half a time is one. The first trumpet is another. If you saw the second trumpet sounding would you then begin to believe what you are listening to each week?
Yes.
Dill Weed
A qualified 'Yes'.
"And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood."
Provided it wasn't 'spiritual' and only discernable to Ron who would then have to tell me it happened because I or no one else (including COG-PKG members) could tell it had happened.
Would you have known the Thunders or 1st Trumpet had sounded without Ron telling you they did?
Watch out for 'spiritualization' of things because it gets you to believe without evidence - and in religon this usually done to REMIND YOU of your relationship to God and His appointed messenger usually invoking fear and questioning YOUR FAITH. It discourages questioning of the leader.
You are intelligent, develop your critical reasoning and go to college.
Dill Weed
Dill Weed, that I will do. I hope to go get a business degree at the University of Waterlou which is in Ontario or at a business school of some sort if that's no longer there. I hope to become a manager until I have enough money to start a business. For now a computer job would be nice, but they tend to ask you to pay for a job. (Sneaky isn't it.)
World Tomorrow or not there is a need for education so having plans is not wrong in any way. I just realize they might not go exactly as planned, and that can be the way life goes without the Great Tribulation let alone with it. Do you see what I meant about planning for the future and not putting life on hold?
Amen.
Dill Weed
Kirrily, what's your view on the last few comments I've made? Particularly what's your oppinion on the last comment I made on how I'm not keeping my life on hold? I'd love to hear from you as you tend to have unique insite.
It is wise that you are not keeping your life on hold. I wonder what Ron would think. Would he see it as a lack of faith?
The point is that more than a few people won't think that way because they are certain the End is nigh. Some have made what are turning out to be painful sacrifices due to their faith. If the end doesn't come, WO, what will it be like for them? for you?
Also, you may be less likely to put your life on hold due to you young age.
Dill Weed
Observer and Weinland Observer:
You've taken the game of 20 questions far enough. You are not to use my blog to make personal contact. You may be resourceful enough to figure out another means, but it ain't happenin' here.
One last try .... since some of you thought Ron should exercise his "witness powers" and zap some people at Idea City rather than "run away", I am assuming that this is what you would have done in his position.
What would I have done in Ron's position? Let's see what his position was:
(1) Greatly offended by Rick Miller's performance.
(2) As a false prophet, not actually in possession of Witness powers and therefore not able to call down either plagues or fires or what have you.
Given that position, I'd do exactly what Ron did, which was to flee the event. And that's the point.
But then I'd never get myself into the position in the first place.
WO, you asked: "If you saw the second trumpet sounding would you then begin to believe what you are listening to each week?"
Let's pretend that this afternoon "nukular" bombs exploded in New York, Miami, New Orleans, San Diego, and Los Angeles. Would I acknowledge Weinland as a true prophet?
Let's examine that: Deut 18:20-22 gives the test for a true prophet. Which means that everything he prophesies needs to happen when he said it would happen.
Weinland proved himself a false prophet by March 18, 2008 when the thunders had not intensified and the 1st phase of the 5th thunder had not begun. Everything else that didn't happen and the timeline changes just piled on more evidence.
The nuclear explosions would be a horrible event, but would not be a part of Weinland's false prophetic scenario. The only silver lining to such an event would be that Homeland Security would probably land on him like a ton of bricks.
So my answer is not "No", it's "Hell, NO!!"
Mike, I am sencing an indication that you seam to not want Observer and myself on this blog. This blog had become used to a complete anti-Weinland environment for quite a while. I'm sencing you would like it to be that way once again, am I right? Also, Observer and I haven't just been talking to each other and have talked to several people. Are you planning on banning conversations altogether? Whatever you do, lay down actual groundrules for the whole blog. You can't have second class citizens in rank in a blog. Either you want to have a discussion on Ronald Weinland and between people so that the blog is a friendly environment for discussion, a place for people to have fu slamming Ron, a personal website with commenting options closed, or no website at all. Decide what you want and state it somewhere, but don't impose restrictions on a blog for only certain people. (People who have one view over another) If you simply don't want me, Observer, or both of us around you can just say it rather than imposing restrictions that I don't recall ever being imposed on this blog. If you don't want people to have conversations here, and I mean any people both collectively or certain people, have the integrity to let them post one final word to take it somewhere else.
It boggles the mind how some people can STILL believe that Weinland is a prophet. To use a commonly-used word in these parts, I'm "dumbfounded". How many FACTS do Mike and Kirrily have to prove for it to be accepted?
It's akin to still believing the world is flat.
My mother remains blissfully ignorant of the blatant contradictions Weinland has spewed out, both in spoken word and in print. I can't get through to her about anything since she considers me unsavable. She won't read blogs like these. Observer, WO, you two should really know better by know if you've read HALF of the posts here. You two must have brushed off A LOT of information found here.
WO, I have been extremely tolerant of opposing viewpoints. The fact that I haven't deleted your last comment attests to that.
I have been more tolerant of opposing viewpoints than about any other Weinland blogger. And that includes Citizen X, who really was one of the most restrictive I've seen.
I've already stated my position about personal contact in an email exchange. So let's have no more pontificating about "sensorship", second-class citizens, or my integrity.
Maybe Jack or Dill Weed will let their blogs used as pro-Weinland havens for PKG members and PKG wannabees to make personal contact. That's their choice if they would decide to do that (I rather suspect not).
I' reposted as I made an error.
J, if you are from UCG you should consider some things that might not have much to do with Weinland at all. Do you realize how UCG moved away from truth given to Armstrong? Do you realize that passover is observed in two different ways 14th and 15th? Do you realize that UCG does not teach the church is the temple of God even though the bible states this, that it calls the Sabbath a feast day even though it's not one, that the UCG government with a council that votes on doctrine is not how the bible wants a church government to be or truth to be given, that the UCG does not recognize Mr. Armstrong's role as the end time Elijah even though he said himself that he was, that ministers in the UCG are even forbidden from mentioning Armstrong in opening prayers and other times, among something that I may have forgotten? After this is UCG god's 1 true church according to you? The bible says there's only 1! I pray that you will be called. If you don't want to believe Weinland or just don't believe him, start opening your eyes by realizing that with its openness to various doctrines that move away from what was given to Armstrong that the United Church Of God is not spiritually united, is not being called out as the Greek word of church means called out ones, and is not of God! From here, you will be able to search for what is of God. Good luck. I hope this wasn't something you skipped. There is no better tool than the open mind. As I wrote I pray you hede this either now or in the future. In either case, it has been said. The best of luck to you and I pray you will understand what I posted in time. Let me know
(Reposting because my "Name/URL" didn't stick the last time)
Ah yes, the fine art of redirection. Anyway...
"J, if you are from UCG you should consider some things that might not have much to do with Weinland at all."
Yes, I am a member of UCG. I have not implied that anything you said could be a lie, so please have the same courtesy.
"After this is UCG god's 1 true church according to you?"
According to me? I said no such thing.
"I pray that you will be called."
Please don't.
"There is no better tool than the open mind."
Well, you're right about that!
I would say that Mike has been very accomodating.
I have decided two things for myself as a result of these conversations they apply to my participation here and to my blog.
First, anyone is welcome to post what they please anytime. Second, if a person does not respond to legitmate points raised or simply chooses to ignore them and keep advocating an unsupported position, then the conversation is over for me. They may continue on as they like.
WO and O, you should know that when you talk past someone, that is, you dont engage the points they've raised - you're asking them to come out on a slippery slope which just winds up in argument, frustration, and negative comments, sometimes devoving into name calling and accusation - like has happened here. None of that for me, thanks. (BTW, this applies to one's thinking also letting in the first erroneous thought inevitably leads to the second, etc. Beware.)
Those are fair guidelines that result in rewarding conversation - until then - Goodbye.
Don't look for opportunity for offence, enough will find in your life. I don't believe anyone here has intentionally meant to offend. Pratice forgiveness - one thing I agree with that Ron has mentioned.
Time to let time tell.
Tick Tock.
Dill Weed
wo,
you seem to do a lot of reading...how about reading your bible!
plenty of versus in there to contradict RW.
p.s. where does the bible say COG is the only true church?
Todd, it's not even just "COG" being the "one true church".
PKG and LCG (among others) each say that not only are they the true church, but the only true COG.
Considering the 5th so called "thunder" within the 6th seal; weren't all those pesky splinter COG group leaders supposed to be good and dead by now?
Honestly, how can Weinland take control of the fragments of the WWCOG if those other "rulers" are around?
It must have been quite a nice day when Ron thought that gem up, all the other splinter "rulers" die except for himself and all those poor souls under the dominion of other "splinter cells" :-) come to him and the church of Armstrong re-emerges from the Chaos.
But it did'nt happen. All the thunders where supposed the "Thunder Loudly" after the 6th seal was opened (how can one prove this seal or that was opened on this date or that?) and before the 7th was opened? Should not have at least 1 of the named persons gone belly up?
Now Ron thinks we are in the End Times and none of the splinter cell leaders have given up the ghost.
Well, I'm sure it was a nice day dream by Ron to have it go that way, sure would have been nice by his standards to have all those lost congregations become suddenly leaderless and himself be as healthy and spry as ever with all his prophecies come true. Sure would have made him smile I'm sure. But it did'nt happen... which makes me wonder how mad Ron is that his plans are not coming to fruition and all the glory it would bring him... Now he has to go through all this song and dance explanations to keep the natives calm making himself look pretty sad.
A good battle plan rarely survives the opponents first reaction, and so has been the story with Ron.
But just think of the happines of Ron if it had!
Oh well...
:-)
J : I have not only read half of the comments on this blog but all of them for some time now. I have not found even one argument to cause me to question my beliefs or doubt my convictions. The proofs that you and others find so compelling are actually not proofs at all. I realize that we disagree on this. I'm quite certain that your mother would be able to read this blog and not only not be shaken by it but actually have her faith strengthened by it. When you know the truth you do not need to be afraid of what is false as long as you are thoroughly grounded and know Whom it is that makes you stand. Anytime we "lean on our own understanding instead of putting our trust in God alone, we risk falling into the enemy's trap. I believe that this is what has happened to Kirrily and others. This said, I don't think that these blogs should necessarily be read by all. For most there is probably no good reason to bother. In my case I can see a good reason for doing so but I would stop immediately if I ever felt that I was disobeying God by doing so.
Mike: I give up on the "commenters" thing! A joke loses its punch when it has to be explained ad nauseum.
WO has already suggested a blog where we can talk to each other. I think that's a good idea.
As for not putting life on hold, this does not show a lack of faith and I know that Ron would agree. I know several members who are university students or have children who are. (myself included) The World is not coming to an end in just under 3 years. On the contrary, in a way it will be just having a fresh start. I, for one, am looking forward to it and will keep living, with my eyes focused on the goal ahead of us.
I have not intended to offend anyone by my comments and I hope that I haven't done so.
WO, thanks for the reply, and the irony of your "open mind" statement. Your mind is closed to the possibility of RW being false. I kept an open mind, and proved him wrong to myself through his prophetic errors. It was only a split-second decision too. Ronald Weinland said something.... it turned out to be false.... therefore he is false. Simple logic, really.
Have you ever entertained the notion that RW is false? If so, and you still believe him, then you've gone through a lot of denial.
Forgive me for re-asking, but what did you mean by the following:
"What you quoted from the book is yet to happen."
Kirrily was debunking several statements from RW's book, and you claimed that what she quoted has not yet happened. What you said contradicts RW's entire theology. Care to shine some light on that?
WO,
You claimed the following,
"...that the UCG government with a council that votes on doctrine is not how the bible wants a church government to be or truth to be given..."
Where do you get information that church government should be different and it should exclude a democratic type of government? Could you point us in the direction of a chapter in the bible along with a verse which states that this is so?
You also stated,
"...that the UCG does not recognize Mr. Armstrong's role as the end time Elijah even though he said himself that he was..."
Again, can you point us in the direction of an article written by HWA which states that he claims to be the Elijah?
Thanks, Tom
My final comment for this thread.
WO and O, I hope you stick around for a while as there will soon be a timeline change of some sort.
As for being able to read this blog and not have your belief shaken, you think not critally enough, but there is nothing wrong with that. It does though tend to lead to problems.
I want to hear your reactions to future developments. Apparently, you have found a way to contact each other, good for you.
Your welcome to post on my blog, too, if you like. Just apply the rules of the road for worthwhile conversation.
Dill Weed
WO: I'm reposting just part of the comment you made. And am deleting the comment which covers a topic we've covered completely in private emails.
Weinland Observer previously posted:
--------------------------
Todd, the Bible states in Efficians that there is only 1 true church. Eseential knollege was given to Armstrong on the plan of God and restoring other truths. Cog-pkg is the only one that kept all truths. Need I rewrite what you could read if you wanted to know more? I'm a person, not a book. To find out a lot and a lot is needed to understand what you wish, read Ron's books, etc. I could write a lot more but it can all be found in other places. Try cog-pkg.org
Allow me to ask this Mike.
---------------------------
Nope. Enough on that topic.
Those videos reveal some intersting information about how our financial/political system works. I find Alex Jones to be sort of a scaremonger. He dramatizes things too much. His rhetoric leaves much to be desired. He'd be more persuasive without making outrageous claims.
Question answered. :D
Dill Weed
Dill Weed, I like the way Alex Jones tries to uncover Builderberg group meetings. I don't watch him regularly, but I watch some of his videos when they are released. The End Game was one I watched. Do you recall that one?
Yep - I've gone over the word limit yet again - so 2 posts:-
Wow - I've missed some action overnight.
WO, and O - You really have served an awesome purpose here on this blog.
I'm dumbfounded (;-)at how strong you both are at being here. After all, God's most formidable prophet has stated that reading things about him can 'affect his faith' - so you two, well, talk about strong! Maybe when he quits, (finally) you two can take over the mantle yourselves.
I am in awe (;-) that when your leader, God's Final Witness, and most formidable prophet of all times, STRONGLY suggests you not be in places like this, you both put yourself above all that and stay (don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are here!) - well, you are stronger than me! What about being obedient to GFW, therefore, GOD Himself? mmmm.)
Putting your life on hold - Wayne Matthews, an Elder in TRUE (;-)) church of God, quit his job - putting his life 'on hold' to help with the MAJOR influx of new people needing guidence. (He is in major financial trouble now, and no influx of people for him to 'help'). Wayne told his bosses why he was leaving, so what 'witness' has this been to them? Remember, all this is to be witness to the WORLD.
Young ones can put their life on hold, and if you are 15 WO, you are lucky and will hopefully recover after all this is done.
When the mind WANTS to believe something, (and two of you have been shining light examples), despite EVIDENCE to the contrary - it truly, truly (;-)) is amazing.
WO - you are like me! You will need to watch your spelling, grammar etc if you want to be a writer! (Or just get a really good proof reader like me ;-).
Here is a summary of my initial post:-
Rons mission:-
Find a way to clearly seperate God's true church from those who are false.
Method:-
Write 2 books, give sermons and interviews, stating things that are to happen BEFORE they do - and when they come to pass EXACTLY as they are stated, the WORLD will know who to listen to.
The TIMING will be the way the WORLD can validate the books/sermons/interviews as events described therein come to pass EXACTLY as I say, in the TIMEFRAME that I state.
It will be up to GOD HIMSELF to reveal who he is working through using TIMING and EVENTS coming to pass EXACTLY as God gives them to me (Ron).
Result:-
Timeline 1 - failed.
Timeline 2 - failing (no 1/3 destruction of USA in 2 blowings of the first trumpet)
Petition of God to kill off other leaders before 7th Seal is opened (unless I have misunderstood the word 'Prelude'?) - DECLINED.
Don't know why I bothered with this summary - people can only 'see' the evidence if they LOOK. It's actually not that hard.
Fasting: Interesting how Ron bags other COG's for God not honouring THEIR fasts! Shoe is on the other foot now.
O, and WO - I sincerely hope that when all this does not eventuate, that you can come here and talk with us - please do not be afraid to do so.
You feel sorry for me, I feel sorry for you.
Don't forget, I have been in your shoes - you have not been in mine (because you are still there).
As far as the truths, when I left, the ONLY thing I DID NOT believe that Ron was who he said he was. It would be a real shame if the other 'truths' are actually true, but spoiled by a false witness.
Remember, 'if it were possible, even the elect would be decieved' - a counterfeit is virtually impossible to tell from something that is true.
I do however, think Ron is so OFF, that he would play no part in any counterfeit - no one out there is listening to him, because he is not saying anything different, to anybody else sprouting off about end times.
To the WORLD, he is nothing (not even a false prophet, cause no one's heard of him - to the people who have, through people like me, HE IS FALSE. I told them the first timing (as Ron told us to) DIDN'T HAPPEN. Shame again, that if all the other truths are true, it certainly has been spoiled to those people I shared EVERYTHING with, because Ron is a false prophet. Boy, Devils doing such a GREAT job!! (Nah, he gets too much credit - man does a good enough job on himself).
Again, Ron is meant to be a witness to the WORLD.
The witness he has given, and proved, is that he is FALSE.
I may have seen that one. I don't remember so I am downloading it again.
Dill Weed
PS Kirrily - It is going to take the passage of time for WO and O to gain perspective. All the evidence presented so far has been more than enough to do the job... Now, it is time for time to do its relentless job. : )
Dill Weed
wo...sorry dude. effesians is not in my bible....have you got an actual scripture i can look at?
o, your comment continually repeats that you lean on God for guidance....I have to laugh at that, because everything you say shows that you hang on every word RW teaches. To lean on God, you must lean on His word...the bible.
So far, neither O or WO can back any of their claims with scripture. They also have skipped over any reference to scripture when faced with Gods word in a debate. A continuing problem I've noticed with the RW followers that I've had dialogue with.
typical reply..."read RW's website/book/newsletter"
This does not prove out against God's word! Hello!
Kirrily, As for my spelling I could probably do better, but I'm not selling it so no need. I like quick comments and writing what I need to write and then submitting it. I do get 89% in English mostly so that's an indication of my writing. You did say young people can put their life on hold. I say just about anyone can and few should. If you think I'm keeping my life on hold, let me know how I'm doing it. I don't thin k I am but if you think I am and think you know how I'm doing it I'll have to check it out and stop.
Hey WO - no, I don't think you are putting your life on hold at all - that's great.
Problem is, a lot are - including the PKG ministry, people selling/not selling their homes, deciding not to have children, spending large amounts of money on food stores etc etc etc. Not to mention the strain on relationships - ie. married couple, 1 believes Ron - the other doesn't. People also moving to quickly with things because of lack of time - ie. 2 people marrying because they do not want to be alone when the Tribulation (the worst time in all human history)hits. (They need to be married so they are not together in sin.)
I'm sure you are getting the picture here - MOST PKG'rs HAVE put their life on hold and/or acted impulsively in other areas (ie. borrowing to buy supplies for Tribulation thinking they would not have to pay it back - as GFW's both did).
WO: Spelling, yes, I was like that too - I think writing has become more of an 'art' than it used to be (ie. did you use a noun with an adverb and all that). That's a good thing I think. With spellcheckers and so on, I think a lot of people become lazy (know I do!).
You are obviously a very bright young person.
J : Have done up an explanation on the word 'dumbfounded' on Dills blog - hope you like!! ;-)
Thanks, Kirrily! :D
Yeah, and I can vouch for that "putting life on hold" thing. My mother will not travel, will not get a pet, will not take up a hobby, will not fix up the house, and will not buy new things for the home. Those are all things she has told me she wanted to do, but can't because prophecy is right around the corner. All she does is exist and PKG.
Sad really, she was a good painter.
WO, don't be sneaky again. This time I'm reposting part of the comment I'm deleting. Don't count on me being so Charitable again.
Weinland Observer previously posted:
--------------------------------
J, what I said about things that were stated as not having happened are yet to happen, I meant just that. Did you not read every post I wrote. I suggest you check some of the first few I posted, mainly close to June 20. How many times have I not believed Weinland? Twice.
Todd, I recommend you read Mystery of The Ages to have your answers to your questions. It's an inspiring book. I prayed about it everytime I finished a chapter J, I recommend you read Mystery Of The Ages too. It is important to know what Armstrong taught. Sorry for mentioning it if you have already read it. I will leave it at that. I'm learning a lot from this blog and the very fact people ask me to ponder and think leads me to believe that there is a reason why I should be here. I'll be here Dill Weed and anyone else who wants me to be.
Dill Weed, great vids on that blog of yours. I'll watch a lot of those videos. What's your take on Alex Jones?
To respond to some people here.
Kirrily, it's nice that you see I'm not putting my life on hold. You probably feel comfortable with that, I can imagine! I don't think Ron condones putting life on hold. He never officially condmemned it because obviously some things are done on faith like preparation physically which I don't have the resources to do but am not worried about that since I know God's will is what happens. Ron had to repent on buying things that he bought because of what he thought would occured. What Ron seams to do is guess and go by his carnal understanding before God gives him what he needs to give. He does admit this and repented. Many people do this. You saw what I wrote concerning time, times, and half a time. Just like I stated something I didn't know was 100% correct, Ron did the same. The only difference is that Ron gets his revelations from God and I got mine by some of Ron's hints combined with mathematical zeal. The similarity is that both Ron and I need to repent. Sin is sin to God no matter who sins.
J, you have my permission to print out some of the comments I made or do whatever you need to do to send them to your mom in the not keeping life on hold area. As long as it's not personal, let me know what she thinks of it.
Todd, I admit I'm poor at quoting scripture. I can read it and understand what it means, but I am not skilled in quoting it. Quoting a verse in the middle of a chapter doesn't prove much at all. Context is the key. I randomly quoted scripture from a chapter makes as much of a statement alone as a sentence that is picked out of a paragraph. Just a thought.
I am better at quoting whole chapters. My description of Hebrews 8 is one of them. Some I know so far are Mat 5, Matt 24, John 5, John 7, James 4, the Book of Jude, and the book of Jole. Lastly, I know the contents of the first few chaptersabout of Gennesis and many parts of the book of Revelation in terms of its content. I often think that it would benifit people to memorize scriptures in the same way Muslims can recite the whole Quran. If I memorize something, I understand it. If I can memorize and ask God to help me keep what I learn, I am well off. Just a few thoughts.
Peace to all.
Come now, can we really not figure out that Effesians is Ephesians, Saytin is Satan etc.?? Why be soooo picky?
Kirrily, if I believed that it was wrong to be on this site I would not be on it. If Ron, said not to go on it I would not go on it. Not because I worship Ron but because I respect the position God has placed him in in the church. I remember Ron commenting about why he stayed away from the anti Weinland blogs. It had nothing to do with shaking his faith. Who can benefit from reading lies, mocking, and distortions about oneself?
As for the proofs you present. How many ways can you say the same things, over and over and over .... Why quote scripture when most don't think the OT is relevant and scriptures in the NT are twisted and/or taken out of context. How do you think I came to almost all of the Truths I believe. I'll tell you ... by reading the Bible many, many times over the years, crying out to God to explain why I was seeing things that flew in the face of what I was being told in church as well as in the lives of most who called themselves Christians. And this started long before I even heard of Ron Weinland. When God was ready to lay it all out for me, I was ready to learn and I recognized the Truth because I had come to totally trust in the One who had sent him. I know that you will accept none of this but here it is anyway.
As for the putting your life on hold ... except for the waiting to have children (and this is a suggestion not a command) this is not taught in any way. Wayne was not forced to do what he did. He understood the higher call to "lose his life in order to find it." He will not go unrewarded. Do some people act strangely when first called. Of course. We are still human with a whole lot of learning to do. That's why we need to "pray without ceasing" and to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."
J, you have my permission to print out some of the comments I made or do whatever you need to do to send them to your mom in the not keeping life on hold area. As long as it's not personal, let me know what she thinks of it.
First, in all honesty, I can't tell if you're being sincere or talking down to me. My internet sarcasm senses are tingling!
Second, I see nothing you said that would at all benefit her. "I don't think Ron condones putting life on hold" wouldn't cut it. She would laugh at me if I said that. She knows Ron more than you do, and has been set in her ways since 2003.
Third, if she won't listen to a 25 year old, then she won't listen to a 15 year old. She plays the "age and experience" card far too often. I am young, and she is old, therefore I am WRONG.
And speaking of her, she just sent out an e-mail to all her kids and friends, touting Ron's ideacity speech and Ron's soon-to-be far-reaching fame and influence. (She said the same thing when he did radio interviews.) I replied to all with a link to Mike's summary of Weinland, hee hee. BCC, learn it, love it, know it...or I will strike.
Repost. Sorry for this error.
trike.
July 6, 2009 6:59 PM
Anonymous said...
J, I honestly wasn't being sarcastic. However I see what you mean now.
Observer, I need to work on saying more with less. "More is less." I've had a teacher tell me this a few times because he thinks I write well and can improve on it.
Something's been messing up with me trying to post here. Third attempt.
J, I honestly wasn't being sarcastic. However I see what you mean now.
Observer, I need to work on saying more with less. "More is less." I've had a teacher tell me this a few times because he thinks I write well and can improve on it.
Observor,
You have said it all, truly, truly, truly.
Thanks :-)
All three of your posts went through OK, WO.
Observer said:
: I have not only read half of the comments on this blog but all of them for some time now. I have not found even one argument to cause me to question my beliefs or doubt my convictions. The proofs that you and others find so compelling are actually not proofs at all.
I believe that you have managed to discount the proofs Kirrily has given, as well as any others although you haven't addressed them.
Actually, the burden of proof is on Ron. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Let's say that Ron were on trial for a violation of Deut. 18:20-22. You're his defense attorney. The prosecution has presented its arguments for his guilt. What would you say to a panel of unbiased jurors (which means the faith argument will have no weight) that would convince them that Ron is indeed a prophet of Abraham that that he has not prophesied falsely in the name of God?
wo/o
true, some things can be taken out of context to be interpreted in different ways than intended.
But, some are fine to be layed out for all to see and can be applied to todays life just as it was applied when it was written.
Just like 1 john 2:27
wo/o
read 1 corintians 12. This not only explains the gifts of people in a particular church. It is also talking about other churches. We are all the body of Christ.
Do you know what Jesus said to his apostles when they complained about other people teaching / healing in Jesus' name?
See mark 9:38-41
wo...i highly recomend the program quickverse. makes all the scriptures easy to find.
Todd, I read the scriptures you stated. Mark 38-41 stated that those who are not harming God's church are not against it. There are many places where true Christians were welcomed. America was one of them as many moved there after it's discovery according to Armstrong's book. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they had been in Islamic Empires in the past as many Islamic countries had mor tolerance to anti-Rome sects than all of the so-called Christian areas.
IKor 12 was a great chaptr as well. It discussed that no part in God's work or standing in the church is small. However, it says there are many members and they are 1 body. This in no way refers to sects.
By for now.
"1": And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
"2": Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
"3": Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
"4": O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
"5": Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
"6": They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
"7": Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
"8": Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
"9": And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
- Ezekiel 13
Revision to previous post, where I said I would allow anybody to post anything. After thinking about it, it won't be anything goes. I'll monitor things. There haven't been any problems so far. :X
Dill Weed
"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."
- Ezekiel 14
Mark Ll, very true scriptures indeed. There are a lot of false prophets in the Israelite nations. I won't even go to the Jeruselem area, where some terrible hipocrasies have occurred and are fueled by some Christian Zionist .sects. The US has the largest number of religions and cults in the world. All will be proven wrong. God will prevail.
P.S. I'm going to read Ezekiel as a sermon of Ron's recommended doing so. It's a large book so I'll have to pray for understanding, but God willing I will understand what I need from it. I will maybe go through Mr. Armstrong's 58 lesson Bible study in the future. However I'll stick to what's on cog-pkg.org for now until that is done. Then there's actually doing something else that involves not being on the computer, living, where I can practice what I learn. For those who do not believe Weinland but do believe some of cog teaching: Kirrily, J, anyone else: learn from Herbert W Armstrong's writings.
Later.
P.S. Kirrily, great post on Dill's blog! Either you like word games, like philosophy, or just had a spir of the moment idea. Which one was it?
Todd, I didn't quite get your last comment. You seam to be comparing me to a dog. Either you're trying to tell a joke or make fun of me. Either way, I don't know you so no worries there. Continuing the use of dogs here, let's make sure we play nicely and not start a dogfight. Sound good?
proverbs 26:12
"Lying is the outcome of people being right in their own eyes and stubbornly holding to their own viewpoint, regardless of EVIDENCE to the contrary."
I know what the verse meant, but what did you mean. More FOOD For thought! Wait, I had a lot of that with Ezekiel today, on chapter 17. Now I need some physical food. For now, that's taken care of. Later, maybe so and maybe not.
"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God."
The verse above does not however imply that you can live without food.
I'm getting ahead of myself. God will take care of that and other things later on, as this is his prerogative.. He dicides where I'll be and won't be.
In the meantime, I'll enjoy the physical blessings God gave to us and have a good meal.
Later Todd.
P.S. I see you named me. Unfortunately that was someone else's job and that person gave me among other things that I have today, a nice and uncommon name.
The name? For me to know and for you... To not know....
Until next time, Weinland Observer out.
A comment about the word "faith", and the "faith argument".
It's interesting to see the huge difference in how cult leaders and their followers use this word "faith", and how linguistic sources actually define it as used in the Bible.
If one does a study on that word that is translated into "faith",
they will see that it comes from a primary verb which basically means to "convince or convict by argument".
That exact word is used in Acts where Paul was in the synagogue, disputing and *PERSUADING* the things concerning the kingdom of God.
In other words, someones "faith", or belief, is based on an argument that has been presented, and has convinced the hearers because of the logic and rationale of the facts contained in the argument, proving its validity.
Coupling this with Pauls' exhortation to "prove all things", which provides the basis for ones belief, or "faith", it is seen that the linguistic and biblical definition of the word is a much more logical and rational concept than the way it is used by cult leaders like RW, which is basically, "Trust me, because if you don't, God hasn't opened your eyes" or something along those lines.
Deleted Todd's comments, ad hominem attack on w/o.
oops, sorry mike.
RKPDRMR, You have a good understanding on what faith is. Ron doesn't expect people to blindly believe him, and people who believe him have proof for doing so. What Ron states is that God is the one who does the calling.
"No man comes to me except the father draw him."
Something similar to that.
Again, context is key so reading it in context is as wel.
Without that verse, I could have thought that I figured out what I now know just by reading it. However, I must keep in mind that God lead me to understand what I understand. Obviously if one believes Ron for the sake of believing someone and doesn't understand him, it's just a case of blind faith. I never had blind faith in anything or anyone, and I pray I never will. I hope nobody else here has it either for it truly is the darkest creation of the human mind. When faith in something is elevated above any form of reason or logic, the mind is no longer the person's mind. The brain works, but the mind becomes a slave.
RKPDRMR, it is very well that you already understood this. Varify everything you believe if you haven't already. Prove all things as you suggested. The mind has peace in knowing it is correct in what it holds true. At this point you may not have the truth, but you will have a belief that you have some truth. With an open mind, you can then discover and learn much. Then, when the truth is manifest to you you can then believe it and your mind will be able to more easily embrace it.
Wisdom is a gift of the Spirit as the bible states, meaning it is a gift from God. When the wisdom of a man is lead to the wisdom of God, the wisdom will be refined and grow. Has God taken me through this process? I can not know for sure, although I wouldn't be surprised if that was so.
I leave with my own quote.
"Truth is true no matter what one thinks of it. It asks not, do you believe me? No matter how many believe it, the truth is the truth."
Someone else once stated: "Say not I found the truth but rather I found a truth"
Truth can come to man but the whole truth is and shall be with God alone for eternity. The Bible states we will always be given more from God once in his family. When I read this in Mystery of the Ages in detail, I felt an excitement that I never felt before. Every time I pray about it I feel excited and ask God to help me become more excited and to understand more. Perhaps soon many more may share in it.
Here I conclude. I don't know how I get so philosophical sometimes.
P.S. This thread is getting almost as many posts as the ironwolf forum got before April 17 last year.
When faith in something is elevated above any form of reason or logic, the mind is no longer the person's mind.
There has been a lot of reason and logic used here. A good portion, if not most, has been overlooked, even though it has been repeated in various ways by different posters again and again - even to the point of frustration.
Time, now, with its relentless march will show the substance of all things.
Tick Tock
Dill Weed
Some of us are still so lost, back at the 1st trumpet when, according to a book I read, an "event" was to cause 1/3 of all tree's and grass's to die off along with 10's of thousands of people and that is "exactly what it means".
Where?
This some lousy tribulation is you ask me. No trumpets, no destruction, no blood and gore, nothing obvious, no miracles, no prophecy that actually happens...
On another note shouldn't Europe be forming one military might right now? They are gonna be late to thier own party if they don't get a move on! It's probably the Germans, they don't want to lead this Armstrongian Prophecy Empire but Rons gonna force the issue... and then the Russians / Chinese will have no choice but to...
P.S. This thread is getting almost as many posts as the ironwolf forum got before April 17 last year.
Is that observation supposed to have a meaning? If you were a good Weinland follower, then you wouldn't bring up the embarrassment that was April 17, 2008. I remember that time. Wasn't the Pope supposed to get some sort of superpowers when he visited the US last year? I guess the media suppressed that news.
Dill Weed, I don't believe people here believe or disbelieve much by just believing beyond reason. I could be wrong, but I have not found this to be the case for the most part. I'm going to ask you this just by pretending for a second that it is certaain Ron is false, not that I believe this. Assuming you are certain Ron is false, how long do you plan on listening to him? Just wondering.
Also, are you on here nearly all the time. You're the quickest at replies to comments.
I'm still going through Ezekiel on biblegateway.com so that's why I've been replying quickly to comments today. Bible reading and blogging at the same time is quite the experience.
Having asked me a few questions, I'll ask you something different as well. How's life for you other than Ron Weinland debunking. Sometimes I wonder whether certain people live on this blog.
J, April 17 was the date in which the Pope started being Inspired by Satan. Notice Mike, my spelling is improving.
Nobody can say that nothing in terms of what Ron stated happened on April 17 including Ron!
I am curious about one thing. Have you read or are you planning to read Mystery Of The Ages J? Also, what is your view of Herbert W Armstrong?
Whisper, you seam to think Ron is somehow with the Illuminati. If he was, he wouldn't have the IRS on him. I admit I had to laugh at your comment. Are you in to conspiracy theories? I wonder where they will crack. Maybe the Russia, China, and Europe alliance to fight God that is formed when the 144000 come to earth is actually what they plan to make the New World Order.
I believe Oct. 10 will explain the questions we all have about what is going to happen and when whether we believe it or not. It won't give us the date of the second trumpet because Ron himself stated that we wouldn't know about it until it happened. However time, times, and half a time will reveal something important in the timing.
I'm going to continue summarizing Ron's sermons until I tire of it. I do it because I enjoy it. Your other question and statements are, in my opinion, not relevant and could be veiwed as insulting, though I have not taken offense.
Dill Weed
I was the same way Dill Weed. When I ceased from believing Weinland for a while I listened to his sermons as a bible study tool because I felt he taught a lot about what the bible said even though at the time I didn't believe him. Sorry if I insulted anybody if I did although I don't think I did. Were you referring to what I said to you or everything I said in general?
WO, my feelings on HWA are probably comparable to yours. I recall an earlier post where you criticized UCG about how it regards HWA...Elijah...council government, yadda yadda yadda. I don't worship the guy, but I believe he fulfilled an important role. He was a man just like Weinland is a man now. People have negative things to say about both of them. As HWA said, "don't believe me, prove what I said with the Bible" or something along those lines. Personally, I can do that with HWA. I don't believe Weinland can make the same claim.
As I recall from the past, my mother criticized me at UCG because according to Weinland, HWA is a banned topic in our sermons. I had to set her straight about that as it was a lie.
I have not yet read Mysteries of the Ages.
WO,
I said 'could be viewed as insulting' and that I had not taken offense. I'm going to leave it at that.
Dill Weed
Here's a link J.
http://hwacompendium.com/MOAINTRO.HTM
Enjoy! It was this book that opened my eyes to the truth.
I ask you some questions and I don't mean for them to be insulting. I have great respect for anyone who questions traditional beliefs and tries to use sacred texts to discover truth. I have just as much respect for any who actually practice their beliefs in all sincerity.
I wish to ask this: Herbert W Armstrong stated during his lifetime that the bible states Christ said I will build my church, not churches and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."
Do you believe that today there is only one true Church of God? Again, no disrespect intended. I know and always knew that bashing ideas and beliefs was wrong and that it only leads to conflicts.
P.S. I'll let you know that I have read a couple of Good News Magazines and watched a few Beyond Today telecasts in the past before reading about Ron. I didn't believe them fully and often felt certain political slants. However it taught me a lot about how many things in the Hadith were prophesied in the Bible. Also, I sent a telecast link to a friend of mine who didn't believe in UFOs as one of the telecasts talked about them. Just thought you would find that piece of information interesting.
WO:
Personally, I believe God does not reside in manmade institutions. UCG, LCG, PKG, whatever, they are all manmade institutions. They were each incorporated by man in the United States. Now, "The Church" is a different matter.
The next part is just from my perspective: when I am baptized into "The Church", I am not baptized into "United Church of God". It's a commitment between myself and God, and not this incorporated entity. If I decided to leave UCG for another church, I do not see the need to get re-baptized. Now I know that according to Weinland, all baptisms since 1986 not done by his church are invalid. I call BS on that.
Among the COGs, claiming to be the one and only church where God resides is arrogance and the complete lack of humility.
"The Church" as I understand it, transcends non-profit organizations. You and I both keep the Sabbath, keep the holy days, do what God commands, yet as a follower of Weinland, you believe I am spiritually inferior to you; that I don't have what it takes for salvation. Well really, WHAT'S the difference between me and you? Is it because I do not accepting Weinland as a prophet? I don't recall seeing that in the Bible as a criterion for salvation.
Weinland Observer,
Are you sure you're 15 going on 16?
Or did I miss something?
If that's the case, you're one sharp 15 year old, even though I respectfully disagree with some of your views.
And to Dill Weed, you said,
"There has been a lot of reason and logic used here. A good portion, if not most, has been overlooked, even though it has been repeated in various ways by different posters again and again - even to the point of frustration."
I can only think of two words that rule the day here, that nobody can argue with:
Tick Tock
I'm getting very dizzy going around, and around, and around......
WO - posts on Dill's blog - just me having some fun with words :-)
Have a great day/night all.
"God declared Gentiles clean. Jesus didn't die to sanctify pigs and shellfish."
If pigs and shellfish are still unclean, so are the Gentiles.
yep, Jesus himself declared all those foods OK, goodluck convincing the RW followers that though.
I agree with Kirrily...getting dizzy all the round and round without them actually addressing the arguments set before them....
almost commical
Repost. Sorry.
RKPDRMR, I actually am 15. I have eknolege but need more experience to go with it. Actually, Dill Weed said that to me. I told him that most people have reasons for believing what they believe, paraphrasing here slightly. Yes, time is the key.
J, it isn't about believing in Ron but more specifically about believing the truth. When the various COG splinters after Dec. 17, 1994 were created none held on to every truth revealed to Mr. Armstrong. That's not a small thing. The truths were given to Mr Armstrong so those wishing to hold fast to them should not have changed a thing. The two booklets by Ron that your mother read explain this clearly. Have a look at them if you wish.
Here's an example to illustrate this. In 1974 when Armstrong was given the correct observance of Pentecost, those who didn't except it left the church. Armstrong could have said they were still part of the church, but he didn't because it's not scripturally correct. God's spirit requires continuous growth and when you begin rejecting truth it is not continuing. For instance, those who didn't believe the new revelation of Pentecost couldn't just reject it and continue being in God's church. I do hope you read Mystery of The Ages though.
Mark and Todd, The unclean foods are unclean and are not healthy. Pork is deffinetely bad for people. Why do you think Muslims don't eat it. I'll tell you. It's because much of Islam is Torah teaching minus God's holey days and the worship service on Friday, the day of the Creation of Adam. I am not in any way trying to disrespect the Quran, which does truly have a remarkable code in its text.
Also, gentiles were never declared unclean, but the meats were. Israel was the nation through which God sent messengers to prove that man gain, I recommend Mystery of The Ages.
The idea of gentiles being unclean is a deeply Zionist propaganda gimic not supported in scripture. God is not a racist! He could have created one race if he wished.
Observer and I did address what we were asked. Whether you understand it or not is another matter.
I have had various beliefs in the past, and I praise God that he kept me away from Traditional Christianity.
WO:
Yes I noticed your slight improvement in spelling. Your spelling is OK for the blog(although sometimes a bit humorous). But for your own benefit, I'd suggest trying to improve your spelling. Won't hurt a bit to have improved spelling when looking for a job. Firefox has a built-in spell checker and that could help.
In case you hadn't noticed, I want to point out that a couple of comments were deleted for attacking a "second class citizen". Not wanting to reignite our argument, just pointing this out.
Trying to gently steer the conversation back toward some semblance of the original topic:
Kirrily has some additional material over at Dill Weed's blog that shows off her talents in a topical manner.
Also a question for Observer: Let's say that Ron had been true to his word in the "If by Pentecost" declaration of March 29, '08. Let's say that on Pentecost of last year, he announced that he was stopping preaching and turned services over to Johnny. And that on July 31 of last year, he announced on his blog that he was acknowleding being a false prophet and was also resigning as pastor and corporate head. Or say that he announced it this Saturday.
In that case, I think that a sizable portion of PKG would refuse to believe that he is a false prophet even with his statement.
Your thoughts?
WO:
I don't know about that. I look at the way UCG is now, and it looks pretty similar to what Armstrong taught. We keep the feasts, and hold true to Armstrong's teachings. No huge changes in the past 30 years.
As for PKG, let's see... The Feast of Tabernacles is all but done away with (just meeting on the Holy Days is a VIOLATION). I doubt Armstrong would approve.
PKG teaches that Jesus was NOT pre-existing. Weinland says that Jesus did not exist until he was born in the flesh, thus denying his divinity. I doubt Armstrong would approve. The Bible has things to say about that belief too.
You say you hold Armstrong and his truths in such high regard, but forget that Weinland has deviated greatly from that. You said "The truths were given to Mr Armstrong so those wishing to hold fast to them should not have changed a thing." Take a look at all the things Weinland has changed. So much for "holding fast."
DO NOT tout PKG as the continuation of "the Church Armstrong started" because PKG spits in the face of Armstrong.
Weinland changes and twists the Bible to suit his needs. The Bible is not the US Constitution. There are no amendments.
WO, I am still awaiting a response. I know you have been busy.
You claimed the following,
"...that the UCG government with a council that votes on doctrine is not how the bible wants a church government to be or truth to be given..."
Where do you get information that church government should be different and it should exclude a democratic type of government? Could you point us in the direction of a chapter in the bible along with a verse which states that this is so?
You also stated,
"...that the UCG does not recognize Mr. Armstrong's role as the end time Elijah even though he said himself that he was..."
Again, can you point us in the direction of an article written by HWA which states that he claims to be the Elijah?
Thanks, Tom
PS. In one of your recent comments you wrote that one should," Verify everything you believe if you haven't already. Prove all things... the mind has peace in knowing it is correct in what it holds true.
Help us to verify your statements, so we do not believe blindly. For you wrote, "I never had blind faith in anything or anyone, and I pray I never will." This is the reason why we need verification. Did you verify that God does not like a democratic government? Are you sure you opinion is correct? Did HWA really claim to be the end-time Elijah or did others make this claim?
Mike: Ron could not proclaim himself a false prophet at Pentecost 2008 because it would have been a lie. He had made some incorrect predictions based on wrong understanding of timing and had to admit that, but he knew the job that God had given him to do and could not walk away from his responsibilities. Being an end time witness is not a job that anyone would want to take on in his own strength.
Now, to answer your question. If Ron were to state that he was a false prophet, I would have no choice but to believe him. The alternative would be that he was a liar. This is a hypothetical question of course and, as you are well aware, I do not believe that Ron is a false prophet or a liar.
Todd: Could you please tell me where to find the quote in which Jesus declares all meats clean. Thanks.
Oh, I think Ron has told a lie or two. Or twenty.
If you'll reread what I wrote, in the hypothetical scenario I presented he did not acknowledge being a false prophet at Pentecost but he did stop preaching. That would not have been a lie, but would have been true to his word to stop preaching at that time.
As to whether you'd believe him should he actually follow through on his promise to acknowledge being a a false prophet, I'll take your word on it. Just wondering since I'd heard that many refused to believe his announcement on June 21 of last year that no one had been sealed.
As to your statement that it would have been a lie for him to acknowldege being a false prophet, I'm not surprised.
Tell me, when some one claims to be a prophet of the God of Abraham, and then states that certain things will happen by a certain time, why would someone not take them to be prophecies? What's the difference in this circumstance between a "prediction" and a prophecy, and how does one determine which a particular statement was?
I'll wait with you for the answers to those familiar questions, Mike.
Dill Weed
"He had made some incorrect predictions based on wrong understanding of timing and had to admit that"
That's the whole point.
His book stated that God gave the timing to Jesus, then Jesus to Ron, and that it could not be worked out in one's own understanding. Then he turns around and said he misunderstood the the timing - what the?
So, God gave him the wrong timing, but the correct timing to someone else first.
This is how God proves his True prophet? Remember the TIMING was given to validate the books when it all came true, but it didn't as Ron 'misunderstood' it.
Don't forget, the timing is what was meant to validate the book - according TO the book.
Again, we know who the author of confusion is, don't we.
WO - please don't confuse the 'truths' with prophesy.
I have a feeling we'll be waiting a long time for a real answer.
In the meantime, I think the answers are: The difference is
-- a prediction is a statement about the future that did not come true
-- a prophecy is one of the few statements about the future that comes about, even if not exactly.
And the only way to tell the difference is to wait and see whether Ron's statement about the future comes true or not.
It's so simple, isn't it Kirrily? :)
Just curious, while you were still a tried and true member of PKG, did you rack your brain with contradictions like this? Was this was led to your leaving, or did you at first scoff at any criticisms of him being wrong?
Mike and Dill Weed: A prophesy is a "thus saith the Lord" pronouncement. A prediction is an opinion based on available knowledge. A prophet may do both, predict and prophesy. Just because a person is a prophet does not mean that every word out of his mouth is a prophesy. Predictions will not always be right, especially when some of the available information is not accurate. I am not implying that God or Jesus gave Ron incorrect information but that Ron held some opinions from the past that proved to be wrong. God gives correction in His time and for His purpose. Examples of this would be: 1) For years WCG kept Pentecost on the wrong day (Monday) 2) HWA believed that Jesus existed before He was born of His mother, Mary, In both cases God allowed this to be believed until it was His time to reveal the truth. We are responsible for what we are given. God expects us to obey what we know. When He reveals more or new Truth we must move on.
Quotes from "2008 God's Final Witness"
Page 51: 3rd Para: “God is about to prove that this book is telling the truth! He will do so with power unleashed beyond any that He has ever used to reveal to man that He is their Creator.”
Page 57, para 4: “As I have stated, I am one of those prophets, and I am also the spokesman of both. That which I am telling you is not of me, it is from the God of Abraham.”
Page 111, Para 2: “The answer that I am who I say I am will be given by the events described in both books coming true EXACTLY has I have described. This will be the proof that I am God’s end time witness and spokesman. But before great power is given to me to perform miraculous events similar to those of Moses (but with far greater power), once the seventh seal is opened and the final three and one half years of worldwide tribulation, God has reserved these seven thunders for me to declare.
So was Ron predicting or prophesying the seventh seal being opened Dec 14th 2008?
Dill Weed
Observer:
Two and a half years ago, PKGer Tony Wilson posted a comment on Ambassador Watch.
Speaking of Ron and "2008 GFW", Tony said: "If you want actual prophecies- read the book. He's stated very boldly specific individuals are going to die and in what order (Rod Meredith, Richard Ames, Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, John Ritenbaugh). If that's not a specific prophecy, what is? And obviously there's not a whole lot of time to wait for that fulfillment."
This would be the same Tony Wilson who has a web site devoted to his spiritual idols HWA and REW. So Tony thought this was a prophecy. What's he saying these days: prediction or prophecy?
"Examples of this would be: 1) For years WCG kept Pentecost on the wrong day (Monday) 2) HWA believed that Jesus existed before He was born of His mother, Mary, In both cases God allowed this to be believed until it was His time to reveal the truth."
This is what Ron has told you in order for you to think that he is special. Ron told you God allowed this, and you believed him. Neither of these "new truths" are unique in any form or fashion to Ronald Weinland. Other groups teach these same things.
In fact, nothing that he teaches as doctrine is unique. The only things that are unique to him are his bold prophecies, which have all failed.
Ron doesn't have a unique bone in his body. That's why he promoted himself to "prophet". That makes him feel special.
So, let me get this straight. If Ron is RIGHT, then it is a prophecy. If Ron is wrong, then it is a prediction. Riiiightt.
That's one way to never have to declare him a false prophet!
And, where in the Bible does it give prophets a free pass called predictions?
J said...
It's so simple, isn't it Kirrily? :)
Just curious, while you were still a tried and true member of PKG, did you rack your brain with contradictions like this? Was this was led to your leaving, or did you at first scoff at any criticisms of him being wrong?
J: I can 'see' WO, and O so clearly - because I WAS exactly like them.
If I had ignored Ron's 'suggestion' to stay away from blogs such as this, I would have been saying the EXACT same things as they are here - IGNORING the facts and evidence.
I did this for SO long! (Only after months of soul searching, and letting God reveal myself, to myself - which was heartbreaking, and led me to understand WHY I was REALLY sticking around).
As our members gradually began to leave (6 out of 9 actually, me leaving too makes only 2 left now. So much for the massive influx of people ;-0 - another failure!) I saw the way in which they were dealt with, and questions they themselves had raised.
One of them before leaving actually brought out the Bible and showed us scriptures which clearly went against what Ron was saying (and this blog points out MANY of the same ones) - well, I got ANGRY at him and said that he 'couldn't see' and that maybe he should think about whether he should be in our group or not.
I then went home and called Wayne straight away (I was the QLD PKG spy!!).
In the back of my mind, those scriptures were haunting me - but I deliberately CHOSE to ignore them - concentrating instead on Ron.
Ie. The scripture where it says if a prophet speaks presumptiously - Wayne never was able to answer, because there is no answer.
I too, hid behind the 'you don't understand but I do, because God 'gave it' to me.
When you get to the core of it, it is nothing but haughty and prideful to stay in PKG. Very painful to admit that about yourself, let alone that you are not hearing from God at all.
Again, dangerous to confuse any 'truths' with someone who propheises, and those same prophecies fail.
This leaves obvious truths, which you want to stick with - leaving yourself pondering 'where do I go now?'.
It would have been MUCH EASIER to STAY at PKG - that is why I understand WO and O so well - and everything they say.
It's great they have stated the things they have, so that the rest of us can truly see how terrible the situation is.
A lesson for us, and a lesson for those thinking of getting in with PKG.
I'm reposting part of Weinland Observer's last comment:
--------------------------------
Tom and others repeating questions I already answered, read Mystery of The Ages.
--------------------------------
WO, you already know that I don't allow my blog to be used to make personal contact. Period.
Mystery of the Ages:
Interesting - when my mother left PKG, Wayne Matthews asked what she was going to do now.
Mum said that she was going to hold onto all the Truths than came through HWA, and specifically just read Mystery of the Ages.
Wayne told me that he felt sorry for her, as Mystery of the Ages was outdated - and that all you really need is GFW and Prophesied End Times.
mark 7:14-23
Mike, you do allow personal contact. A lot of what any one person posts here is to another person! How do you then not allow personal contact? Is it by letting anyone post to anyone and just deleting comments if and when I post to Observer? I want to make sure I understand things clearly. Maybe you should post a list of people that certain people can't contact if that's your goal.
Kirrily, Mystery Of The Ages may be outdated in some ways and this must have been what Wayne was trying to say. The only way this is the case is the fact that the Oneness of God and the fact that there was only one Eternal God hadn't been revealed yet. However, it is the book that summarises Armstrong's teachings.
I've recommended Mystery of the Ages to a few people here and there.
Hey, hey WO - you are being a bit cheeky there.
You know what you're up to.
Mike deserves respect please.
I was thinking you weren't meaning to be cheeky, but come on now - your a bright person ;-).
Mystery of the Ages - I get it.
I should've realised the Bible was a work in progress - sorry.
(Now I'm being cheeky!! ;-)
Todd: I'm trying to steer the debate here away from doctrinal debates not specific to Weinlandism. If there's enough interest in that topic, perhaps we can find another forum.
WO: Since you want to lawyer me on the definition of "personal contact", let me give you my Supreme Court definition of what I meant by personal contact. It means that my blog is not to be used to establish a channel of communication between two individuals outside of this blog, which includes email contact or other contact of any kind or form. But I rather suspect you knew that already.
The exception to that rule is personal contact with me, at the email address on the picture on the right side of the main page of my blog. But you and I have already had that contact, during which I explained my position. I know you don't like it but that's the way it is.
Very autocratic of me, yes -- hang me, I'm guilty. But compared to others including Citizen X, I believe that I've been very much the benevolent dictator.
Todd, I read those verses. Unclean meats are still unclean. There is scientific information that indicates how certain meats are unclean. There is a lot of information on how unclean pork is. I challenge anyone here to find me an article or anything at all that describes how healthy pork is. Come on. You know you can do it.
Kirrily, you should understand and probably understand where I'm coming from. All I'm trying to do is talk to this particular person that Mike won't let me talk to although he will allow me and anyone else to talk to everyone else on his blog. Do you see anything fair in that? There's a difference between me posting my email and just posting on this blog.
I do admit I liked the fact that Mike deleted two slightly insulting comments made towards me. I brushed it off but there is no need to start insulting or trying to make fun of people that you don't even know like someone did. I forgive this person but I do think it was cheap.
aMike, thanks for the clarification. I want to make sure I get this right. I can talk to anyone here and say anything within reason as long as I don't try to find a way to contact anyone from this blog by means of using this blog. I'm cool with that.
P.S. When I tried this a few days ago with another forum, did the fact that the info that was deleted from the forum have anything to do with you? I just wondered as when you deleted my comment I checked the next day to find the comment on the particular forum had been conveniently deleted.
WO: I don't know which other forum was the one on which you attempted personal contact. If I had anything to do with your attempt on the other forum being thwarted, it was by example rather than by direct intervention.
And as far as what you say here, please try to keep on topic, such as it is. I'm trying to steer the conversation away from general debates such as tithing, clean/unclean meats, etc where these issues are not really unique to Weinlandism as opposed to general Armstrongism. If there is a general desire for that type of conversation, perhaps we can figure out a different forum.
Mike, how can you not know what forum it was when you specifically deleted the post I wrote when I stated there were updates to it?
WO: With your extra little tidbit, I'm guessing that you're referring to Citizen X's blog.
Citizen X posted to my blog a few times, but it's been months ago (unless he's posted since as "anonymous" before I disallowed that).
I tried a comment on his blog once, but he didn't approve it.
So if he's the one who "sensored" your comment on another forum, it was entirely his decision for his own reasons of which I had nothing to do.
Kirrily: you totally get it. Thanks for the reply.
Mike:
I posted once on Citizen X's blog. No go, and it's nothing different from what I post here. That was before he took a stand.
Then a couple months later, he came out with his stance, and I let out a good laugh. I haven't been back there since there's nothing to read. (Just the Weinlandites who loudly proclaimed that they were leaving....only to come back a few days later)
Was Weinland predicting or prophesying when he declared the seventh seal would be opened Dec. 14, 2008?
Dill Weed
Dill Weed, the seventh seal opened on Nov. 14, and the first trumpet sounded on Dec. 14. They couldn't possibly be changed and still make sence. The timing is so perfect. As Ron stated, there is no time in the next hundred years where the pattern of dates, 280 from Christmas to Trumpets and 1335 days from that feast of Trumpets to Pentecost. It consists of numerological perfection.
So to conclude, it was a prophesy!
Just a reminder: A preddiction is something someone making a statement tht reflects what he/she believes it's going to happen. In the same way, an economic annalist could make a preddiction and use words such as "I believe" Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true. Now a messenger of God shouldn't end up making such errors, but it happens sometimes. Ron does repent frequently on sermon webcasts, so I can only expect that he does a lot more of it on his own.
Observer, every once in a while I think about how I would live during the next 6 Trumpets where I will have to do some things without a computer. I have composed a good plan below. Let me know what you think of it.
1. First and firmost, continue to strive to keep God's commandments no matter what and obey anybody who rules me in anything that doesn't cause me to break them.
2. Keep asking God for help.
3. On the sabbaths and holey days where sermons, a bible, etc might not be permitted, to make sure that I at least keep the sabbath command and if nothing else sit down and ponder what truths of God I have learned and pray for a more extended period of time.
4. Not to keep life on hold as I know God will eventually make that happen.
5. Keep learning from the sermons, Armstrong's literature, etc for as long as I can.
6. Share the truth with anyone who will listen after praying about when to do so.
I had this plan for a while. I just never wrote it down.
Again, let me know what you think of this plan.
WO,
Thank you for answering the question.
Before Ron revealed the 5oth truth, did you understand Ron's April claim to be a prediction or a prophecy?
Dill Weed
I had to delete a comment here, might have been Observer but didn't know for sure because it says anonymous.
I still have the text and can send it to you in an email if you want to repost. My email's on the mailbox on the right side of the main page of this blog.
Dill Weed, I actually thought it as a prophesy before April 17. I do have to admit that. although I did raealize trumpet 2 would sound 45-90 days later, I did realize we were in the first trumpet.
Oops ... my comment went through as Anonymous and will be deleted so I will repost it.
Dill Weed: Sorry for not answering your question. I wasn't ignoring you. I just can't spend much time on this blog. I would answer now but WO gets an A+ from me for his answer so there is no sense in repeating it. : )
WO: In order to post on Citizen X's site you have to give your e-mail address. Are you sure that you posted correctly? I don't know why he would delete your comment unless you put an e-mail address in your comment. I don't think he would allow that unless you got permission first. Also, if you've posted before you would probably need to keep your original name.
Your "what to do list" sounds great ... well thought out and your priorities seem to be in order. : ) It would also be a good idea to have some sermons downloaded for later use and to share with others who haven't had the opportunity to learn. I have an ipod that uses AAA batteries for just such a purpose. And, of course, always remember Charity in all you do.
WO,
Thanks for answering again.
You thought Ron's April prediction was a prophecy, but it was not.
You believe Ron's December claim is a prophecy. You stated the dates and timing were perfect.
1. Do you think it is possible that Ron could have it wrong again?
Dill Weed
Dill Weed, I have an open mind.
Observer, as for me I'll post on Weinland Witness without my email address in the comment if that will work. Thanks for the advice.
Everyone, feel free to help Weinland witness be reactivated
WO,
Do you think it is possible Ron could be wrong about December?
Dill Weed
I rather think the question was "When RON gave the first timeline did RON know it was PROPHECY or think it was PREDICTION?".
Which one?
If he was PROPHECYING then he is in violation of the biblical meaning of Prophet as he was wrong.
If he was PREDICTING then why did he pass it off as PROPHECY from God to Jesus and finally to him?
Either way it's a lie, intentional or not.
When does Ron plan to go back with a YELLOW HIGHLIGHTER and "highlight" all the parts of the book(s) that are "Prediction" so that we mere mortals (non witness's) can finally read what GOD has spoken to us through Ron without getting all tangled up in Ron's "predictions"?
Or would that let way to many cat's out of the bag?
:-) ?
WO,
Ok, you answered the question indirectly, "I have an open mind."
Any answer other than, "No" means you do not have absolute faith in Ron.
Ron says that if you don't believe him you are not trusting God's prophet and Witness. You might have noticed that in his sermons. He gets a little hot about members doubting or questioning.
You were reluctant to say Yes that it is possible that Ron could be wrong again because then you allow for the possbility that Ron is a false prophet.
It is important to understand that many claim to prophecy but when their prophecies fail they attempt to avoid responsbility for being wrong or claim they were not wrong often by saying God has revealed new understanding. Then they go on to redefine terms or recalculate dates. In that way they are able to string people along.
They'll throw in all kinds of reminders to fear God and his prophet, that doubting and questioning shows a lack of faith and love for God, etc. Then the person faces the prospect of being on their own again without answers. Most then will just go along while the story keeps being changed.
WO, it is just important to be ware that that happens a lot.
Dill Weed
Whisper and Dill, Ron stated that he knew the Great Tribulation would start in 2008 with the beginning of the beginning of the collapse of the United States. However, his first timeline was based on the idea that Christ would return on Trumpets instead of Pentecost. In order for this to occur, the Tribulation would have had to begin on April 17, 2008. However, Ron was given the truth that Christ would return on Pentecost. Ron even stated that in one of Armstrong's articles, one on the holey days, Mr. Armstrong stated that Christ would perhaps return on Trumpets. Perhaps not though. hmmm. When the Pentecost truth was given, Ron knew the correct timing. It was given by God. God doesn't lie. He never did. He simply withholds knollege and reveals it in his time. This was the case with all the Prophets. God never changes.
As for Ron being wrong about December, I do not believe this to be the case.
Dill, I answered directly. I do not believe Ron is wrong. However, if he were I would have to believe it. There is a remote possibility but it is so remote I have to just mention it for the sake of an example here.
P.S. Again pretending Ron was wrong, I would not be frightened at the prospect of not having answers. I wouldn't need any help either. Id keep doing research the way I did before finding Ronald Weinland's books. That iss not to say that I do not do research now. Don't get me wrong there. You know what I mean. I know you do.
WO,
The question was one that called for a yes or a no, you answered, "I have an open mind.
A direct answer is either yes or no. But, that's fine because we got to it.
WO, we are all in this conversation to really accomplish this: prevent people from being deceived by false prophets.
You acknowledge a 'remote possibilty Ron could be wrong'. That's good.
I think this is the last I am going to have to say on this. We all expect that soon Ron is going to change the timeline again and we want members and would be members to pick up on that.
Together we will be watching what happens.
Regards,
Dill Weed : D
Dill, Ron wouldn't have emphasized the fact that we were through half a time if the Last Great Day Sermon was a timeline change.
As for me being conned, etc, do I honestly sound like someone who would believe anything? If you knew me you would know this for sure. Then again, you know me in a way although you don't know who I am. Paradoxic statement that one.
For those of you observing the PKG wannabes on this blog, you will note that Weinland Observer is consistently engaging in "love-bombing" tactics (i.e., offering constant praise, admiration, etc.) -- towards a 15-year-old child.
This indicates that the church is still targeting children with its recruitment tactics, just as they attempted to do in early 2008, before the hue and cry on the ex-CoG blogosphere led Weinland to announce that elders and church members were to turn the children back to their parents.
Weinland Observer does not seem to be doing a very good job of that, now does he? But that was an order given by Weinland during Timeline One, so of course it's now invalid.
The children are, once again, fair game.
Purple Hymnal: First of all, it is Weinland Observer that is 15 years old and I assume that it is me who you were accusing of doing the "love bombing". I am not the only one who has kind to WO. I'm just the only one that you would have a motive for making ridiculous accusations about so that you can slander COG-PKG. If, indeed, COG-PKG was going after young people, WO would have no trouble being baptized. As has been fully stated already, this is not the case.
All who are interested: Anyone that is not part of PKG must go through the process of contacting the Church through the normal channels and will then be directed to the elder in charge of their area. If the person is underage contact will not be continued unless there is written permission from the parents. I completely agree with the Church's position on this. As a parent myself, I would not want to see my child being proselytized against my will.
If I had a 15 or 16 year old like WO who was obviously very well informed and interested in finding Truth I don't think that I would object to him e-mailing people close to his own age to have discussions on the subject. If you go all the way back to the beginning (several blogs ago) you will find out that this was my intention.
WO: Keep "studying to show thyself approved" and "don't let people look down on you because of your age." In Paul's day you may have been considered "of age", who knows, but in our society, you have a few years to go. : ) Obey God as He reveals Truth to you and this includes obeying your parents. God will give you greater grace. Pray about it and perhaps your parents will allow you to have some contact with the Church. In any case, the time is short. Do all that you need to do to STAND.
Repost. Thanks for the advice, Observer. I will heed it. I know all commandments are to be kept, and not one is an exception. I actually completely understood what Ron was saying on the subject last year. I figured I couldn't be baptized at the time even before Ron officially stated it. It's the law/common sence. Still, there is no reason for anyone to think you're taking advantage of me. Honestly, when my age was guessed I was wondering whether such a thing would take place: (alligations on someone or another) A lot of people here have been nice to me. Nothing wrong with that.
WO: Your comment will probably be deleted since it came up as Anonymous. Just wanted to let you know that I read it and am glad you understand. I'm sure you do already but, pray for your parents and ask God to "show them favor". He delights in giving His children good gifts and this would certainly be a wonderful gift! : ) Satan has left the world in such a mess with families divided. Only God can change all of that.
Observer, I pray for a lot of people at different times. Fortunately though, my family is one of those few that is not divided.
I also understand something else now and it is that when you said that there were some people you wanted me to contact, you never intended for me to find a way through this particular blog. I'm glad there is an actual rule on personal contact through this blog now as I don't feel like a second class citizen. It's not anyone's blog other than Mike's so he can decide what goes on and doesn't go on here. I do think the personal contact rule makes more sence than the original concept of not allowing a blog for Weinland followers to exchange contact info.
Lastly, I actually have had the good fortune of having a family that isn't divided. Everyone in my family gets along well. I'm the only one who believes the truth for now, but from a physical standpoint and in comparison to some other families I feel fortunate as to my condition.
P.S. What do you think of the fact that I'm starting a blog on Ron? I'm going to kep in mind what Ron stated in the past, always direct people to the website while I'm at it.
Good luck to you or whoever is in your family who is going to University, either one. May it be helpful in the new World as well.
WO: You are truly blessed to have a family that gets along. Soon families will not be divided spiritually either. How wonderful! Three of my children are in university. None of them want to have any kind of relationship with God. For them, He is irrelevant. Funny how it bothers them so much though that I believe, even though I say nothing to them unless asked. I still think it's a good idea for them to go on with their studies and encourage them to do so (verbally and financially) : ) I certainly don't regret my years spent in "higher learning". What you learn in and out of classes is important.
As for your blog on Ron, if your parents are OK with it, I think it could be a very rewarding "hobby."
I wish you all the best and you know how to contact the Church if your circumstances change. Don't be afraid to talk to your parents about the Church. In a loving family relationship such as you have, you should be able to talk to them about everything. Obviously, you have a "good head on your shoulders" and I'm sure they know that.
And the love-bombing continues.......
Purple Hymnal, what's your problem with two people being nice to each other and having a good conversation? You know very well Observer isn't brainwashing me. Even if you were to ask my parents, they would say my oppinions come from research. I'm glad I have the freedom that I have. I could see some here wishing they could take my computer away from me. My parents wouldn't. They know I do research and not anything inappropriate. They respect my curiosity and give me advice that I take while knowing I have other ways of seeking advice, through research and God.
So Purple Hymnal: According to you do I have to not talk to anyone or specific people? Am I not supposed to be on this blog? Do people not have the right to be friendly because of my age? Is this your view? Again, if I were in your hands I probably wouldn't be reading the words Ronald Weinland anytime soon.
Again, this is why I hesitated posting my age. False alligations are coming up and I'm thankfull I can't be found by certain people here. I am carefull and if things get out of hand I may not be posting here.
Keep your assumptions out of this, please and know that 15 though I may be I am not a tool people think is being used or someone you can take a few stabs at for the fun of it. To those of you here who treat me with respect thank you.
Just to clarify, nobody has or will be able to hurt me here. However if people wish to start insulting me by using terms such as kicking a dog, calling me deluded, etc, I will leave as I have no intention of going online to get insulted or be talked about as if I'm being used.
I hope to be able to stay on this forum , but it depends on the people here.
I have to disagree with much of what Purple Hymnal posted here. With the similar "handles" he got the two of you mixed up, which I must admit to having an initial bit of confusion when the two of you started commenting here.
Since you came here "prewashed", I don't think that Observer is doing anything to recruit you.
As far as the insults, I remind you that I moderated out the dog thing, and the offender backed off. When it comes to the delusion thing, it's happened relatively few times considering the focus of this blog. If you've received a bit of flack here, compare that to what a Weinland critic would have received on The Weinland Witness forum (if the comment was even allowed in the first place).
When you make a statement and are challenged for proof, provide a rational answer. For example, I have asked you several times for reliable statistics for your claim that the thunders have increased. No answer.
If you mistate something or don't get it quite right, have the courage to acknowledge it. I admitted to an error previously, and Dill Weed did himself today.
I hope you'll decide to stay, but that is your decision. You'll have to understand that you may be challenged here, and perhaps strongly at times. But I won't tolerate gratuitous statements such as the dog thing. You seemed to brush it off at the time, but it appears that it still rankles with you. I'm sorry that happened, and did what I could to remedy it.
I wish this mistake didn't keep on happening.
Thanks Mike. I don't mind challenging questions. It's nice that you clean things up around here. I'll stay for now. I just hope people realize some of thes brainwashing alligations are correct. You showed your integrity by not jumping at the opportunity when my age was figured out and i confirmed it. I was almost certain you would write up something on me as an example of how young weinland followers are being recruted, etc.
P.S. I will admit something here and now. Even if you would have let me post that email, it would have been a very dumb decision to make as any given person could have made up stories and gotten me in contact with them. I'll keep that in mind so that I don't make such a decision someplace where t
P.S. i did correct something. The A prophesy is and A preddiction is" post I had needed to be completely rewritten. The first post really did make me look either deluded or philosophically unbalanced.
hey, i'm the one that made the dog comment....and it didn't say anything in reference to kicking a dog...
it was in reference to an old song that said in the lyrichs "when i'm a good dog they sometimes throw me a bone."
the other "be good johnny" was a reference to another song and was not intended to "name you" as wo thought.
my appologies to mike. my BS tolerance level was very low that day and it was probably a bad attempt at sarcasm on my part.
Appology excepted Todd. Kicking a dog was from someone else.
w/o,
are you mike?
If Weinland Observer is "Mike", he's not this Mike
Todd, I understand your intent now. I originally thought you were sorry for the fact I misunderstood what you said but never mind as you don't need and never needed to be. No, I'm not Mike. I have a name you probably never heard before. And Mike, it's not the name on the email account I created who's address only God, whoever he revealed it to, you, I, and Cog-pkg who I contacted with it knows. That name was random, maybe a part of my name. Let's not ask for my name now. I draw the line there!
WO: I pretty much figured that wasn't your real name. You'll note that I haven't mentioned it publicly.
Thanks for not mentioning it. Even the name on the email address is incorrect. You do have integrity for sure.
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