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Sunday, July 19, 2009
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Tuesday, July 14, 2009
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Saturday, July 11, 2009
His Hawaiian vacation was discussed, the luau that he attended, and the hot weather. Ron repeated the instructions for the Feast of Tabernacles, which will have the same format as last year's. Ron and Laura are traveling "down under" and most people are to listen to the sermons daily purely in their homes or local areas for the first 4 days, and then assemble for the last 3 days of the feast and the Last Great Day.
He stuck his toe back in the water with regard to prophecy. The swine flu may mutate and become more widespread. He was very vague about it -- he can ignore it but at the same time can point to it later on if it does become widespread.
He spent several minutes reminiscing about his epiphany while drinking beer at the Dark Horse Inn in Hays, Kansas back in 1969. He had trouble remembering why he went off on that tangent. I'm having trouble figuring out how he was a college junior that year, given that he was 19 and turned 20 at the end of the school year. Particularly since he was not very studious. Maybe Ron will explain that sometime.
Recently there's been an active debate going on in the comments sections of the last few posts, tedious yet fascinating at the same time. (And not only with the discovery that Blogger paginates the comments once the counts reaches 200 ;) A couple of Weinland's followers, one a PKG member and the other a teen who'd like to join up have been engaged with a number of Weinland's critics and/or mockers, including yours truly. With similar nicknames, it was possible to confuse them which I did initially.
The PKG member took exception to my constant references to the ineffective death curses Weinland has laid against me.
Mike: You have already (kind of) admitted that Ron did not specifically name you in the "death curse" so don't you think it's time to give that one a rest. How many times can you repeat the same things over and over again without someone screaming ENOUGH. Tell us something new!I have readily admitted that Weinland did not name me specifically when issuing the death curse. Actually, he did not name anyone -- does that mean that it applies to no one? There were no answers to that point. The PKG member then brought up a herring colored red:
Mike: I remember Ron referring to e-mails that people sent him in which horrible things were said and threats were made on his life. If you want to own up to being responsible for writing any of those e-mails then perhaps I can accept that you have received a death curse. Otherwise, I think you should stop using it as a proof that Ron is a false prophet even though it seems to be a favorite "proof" of yours.In his sermon of June 13, Weinland mentioned receiving multiple death threat emails. I don't recall any other mention of this. Just for the record, I've sent Ron only one email -- it's quoted here on this blog, and there were no death threats included. And in fact, I've done the opposite, having taken steps to persuade someone else to not publish Weinland's address. I don't wish the False Prophet physical harm, but there may be some out there whose feelings are more intense.
Others participating in the debate took offense to the PKG member's last statement, which could be interpreted as implying that I have threatened Weinland physically. The PKG member responded:
Do you purposely misinterpret what I write? It is VERY obvious from what I said to Mike that: 1. I DO NOT think he sent threatening e-mails to Ron 2. It is those who did send them that Ron was referring to and 3. Unless number 1 is an incorrect assumption on my part (and only Mike could correct that) or I will stand by my opinion that Mike has not been cursed and therefore should not use it as proof of Ron being a false prophet.I pointed to a sermon file for December 20, 2008 during which Ron reimposed the death curse and suggested that the PKG member actually listen to it. The PKG member did not feel that necessary and responded:
Mike: If everyone who mocked or criticized Ron was cursed to death there would be a lot of deaths by now. I would have already buries several family members for that matter. Sorry but you really can't use this "proof" no matter how attached you are to it. It simply doesn't fly.Let's summarize the PKG member's thinking:
- She'd heard Ron criticized or mocked
- The offender didn't die
- Ron is one of the Witnesses ....
- therefore if he'd issued a death curse the offender would be dead
- since the offender isn't dead, Ron could not have issued the death curse.
- therefore no need to listen again to Ron issue his death curse to see what he said
Everyone, Ron's curse was to the mockers. This includes everyone who mocks Ron. It's simple. If you mock Ron you're on the list. If you don't, you aren't on it. Mike criticises Ron but there's a diference between mocking and criticizing.I indeed put out a lot of criticism of Weinland, but also do my share of mocking. I pointed out my New Year's Day post which clearly mocks the author of a book of false prophecy. The teen wannabee replied:
Ron said that the mockers would either stop or die speadilly. You haven't mocked that way in a while.Ron did say something like that when he issued the death curse in April of 2008, when he said that the mockers would either cease or die. By this logic, a two-pack-a-day smoker quits smoking 40 times every day. So I guess there's a lower risk of cancer risk because the smoker quits more often than a non-smoker ;) And maybe because I quit mocking Ron so often I'll live even longer than normal.
Let's look at a few of Weinland's statements during his sermon of December 20, 2008. At about 1 hour and 20 minutes into the sermon file with announcements available for download here, Weinland references his death curse issued on April 19, 2008 against his mockers and says:
Those are the ones who God is going to begin working with early on, the mockers, the scorners, those who hate God. They’re the ones who are going to lose out on what God is offering. ….. I call upon those individuals to have those very problems I mentioned earlier on, to die from within, and not slowly now -- speedily.Weinland goes on over the next 15 minutes to read Revelation 11:3-5 which states:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.At around 1 hour and 28 minutes in the sermon file, Weinland offers his interpretation of "hurt" and repeats himself several times:
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Interesting word. [ referring to "hurt"] It’s a word that means to be unjust toward, actively the cause, if you will, to do wrong toward, literally in the Greek meaning morally, socially, or physically. To hurt, injure, to be an offender toward, to be unjust toward, to do any wrong toward.And later on:
There are definite things here that are going to come back on someone, just like a boomerang. They’re going to learn the hard way in some things, But even more so, because more teeth is going to be added to it.My interpretation of this is that the death curse applies to his critics as well. That point may be debatable, but the death curse clearly applies to mockers. In addition to my mocking New Year's Day post, I issued a series of mocking posts against Ron in December. And then we have the absolute champion at Weinland mockery, Dill Weed, who is still alive and doing what he does best on his own blog.
Every time I point out how long it's been since Weinland issued the death curse against me and that I'm still alive, I mock him. Which I do again, pointing out that it's now 29 weeks since Weinland cursed me with a speedy death, yet still I mock.
Wednesday, July 8, 2009
During the WCG break up after Joe Sr's infamous sermon in Atlanta and repeated a week later at the Big Sandy campus, Ronnie resigned in March of 1995 and incorporated the following month as the United Church of God of Toledo, Inc. Back then, the "spirit of Indianapolis" was alive and ex-WCG members were promised that the new organization would be different when it came to governance, and would work with local church boards. Hence UCG-AIA (an international ASSOCIATION). But after a few years, the "spirit of Indianapolis" soon went by the wayside and I suspect there are few if any independent local boards associated with UCGdom.
Back to Ron's story. Weinland joined up with UCG in '95. Then he thundered about financial misappropriations in UCG in an email sent to other UCG elders at the end of 1996 and possibly in a letter as well sent during the first few days of 1997. After campaigning on the issue for several more months, he resigned from UCG in May of 1997, taking most of his Toledo congregation with him. The associated corporation was retitled as "The Church of God, Inc." The local congregation continued on, with church members voting as members of the corporation to hire Weinland as their pastor. But Weinland was expanding his horizon beyond Toledo and the surrounding region accessible in a day trip. One of the members started a small web site for the church. Sermon tapes were sent to those outside the Toledo area who requested them. In January of 1998, he published the first issue of "Newswatch" which was published intermittently over the next several years.
As a result of Ron's outreach program, he managed to attract as his own followers some of the WCG ex-members ("the scattering") from other areas. These followers included Johnny Harrell and others in Georgia, and also more from other areas such as Texas. Tithes continued to be collected by the corporation governed by a local lay board, and is reported to have accumulated to around $300,000 by early 2000. Ron began to feel an ownership of the members outside the Toledo area. He began hinting that the tithes from out-of-town members should be handled separately.
Matters came to a head between Weinland and members of the board at a meeting held on Saturday evening, January 22, 2000, right after Weinland finished a sermon series entitled "Spiritual Idolatry". Weinland wanted to spend some of that tithe money on a 4-color brochure, of printing quality just like the literature his spiritual idol Herbert Armstrong sent out, to attract yet more from "the scattering". The lay board was less convinced and Weinland left the meeting under somewhat less than calm demeanor. There was a continuation meeting the following Tuesday at which the conflict continued.
On January 29, 2000, Weinland delivered a nearly-3-hour sermon entitled "Am I Following Jesus Christ?" which was later distributed on not one but two cassette tapes. He started the sermon by explaining that it would be one of the most important sermon he'd given in years, and that he had to deliver a long message in a single session because of the timing and this would also be one of the hardest sermons he'd ever given. He canceled a trip to Lubbock, Texas to stay in Toledo to address the problem.
Ron claimed that he had almost resigned in response to an email he had received the night before, but was hanging in there (he was not going to Steamboat Springs to make his living building port-a-potties for his brother Steven after all). The crisis could split the congregation, but that was OK. He didn't care about the money and could start all over again, but was taking a principled stand for continuing to do what he was doing.
Ron said that he would send out the tapes from this sermon -- he would not be a hypocrite by hiding his group's problems after criticizing those of other groups.
During the sermon he played with the member's emotions. He talked about the elderly shut-ins "helped" by his tape program. A few minutes later, he sighs and said "You know there's some wrong spirit in here today, brethren. And it's not God's. There's some pride and haughtiness, I wish some individuals could have a camera looking at their face." I wish I had a videotape of Ron's face as he delivered this sermon, claiming that he loved them all, very deeply.
After a 10-minute break to allow time to switch cassette tapes, he again confronted his congregation by asking "am I saying something wrong, reading people's expressions?" He claimed that he was not chewing out the board, and has respect for them.
A year earlier he had sent a letter to board members Gary Klar and Terry Wrozek stating that he was not comfortable with out-of-area tithe funds being under local control. He stated they were sitting on a great deal of money, and wanted to have a glossy booklet to send out. He proposed a second corporation to handle out-of-town funds, because after all those funds exceeded those generated by the local group in the Toledo area.
Ron repented of reusing the bylaws which he copied from someone else, explaining that they were not Godly. He presented new draft bylaws to be voted on by the members a couple of weeks later, on February 12, as a replacement of the existing bylaws. Under the new Godly bylaws, members of the church would no longer be members of the corporation. That burden would be removed from them and only members of the corporation would be "leading elder" Ronald Weinland as the first chairman and a board of elders. Elders chosen by ---- Ronald Weinland. As an aside, the restrictions for the building fund would be changed to allow spending it to rent facilities. No word on the size of the building fund, but this proviso would allow it to be depleted as it would be spent for those ongoing expenses. This would free other funds for other purposes. I can't say if there is any relation, but 5 years later Weinland had his own building fund, purchasing a $381,000 home in northern Kentucky and putting enough money down that if he had a mortgage the holder did not require that he pay property taxes into escrow.
The sermon ended with his then favorite elder Terry Wrozek leading a song. After which Weinland himself gave the closing prayer, not risking someone else providing a different take on the sermon.
In another post, I will be discussing what happened the week following this sermon.
Note: I've allowed the discussion in the comments to the last few posts kind of ramble off-topic -- with a couple of Weinland's followers participating it's been rather informative. While I'll continue to allow some latitude in the comments to those other posts, Sheriff Mike is in town on this thread. Let's keep the comments for this post on topic, which is Weinland's governance methods in general.
Saturday, July 4, 2009
After he returns to Cincinnati, there will be a few put out of PKG. Sheriff Ron has been patient. While some have responded to his clarion call to pay their tithes, a few holdouts remain. We can't have any of that -- it costs money for Ron and Laura to travel.
Kirrily has followed her article of last week with an analysis comparing "2008 God's Final Witness" against reality. She's uncovering some items I've missed. Here is her piece:
I have outlined all the obvious errors/failures in Ron’s book – God’s Final Witness. All quotes have been typed by me directly from the book – I have done my best to type exactly as stated in the book. I would suggest any reader follow what I have stated (page numbers and paragraph numbers included for your ease of reference).
Any error would simply be a typo. Emphasis – sometimes mine, sometimes Ron.
As the book itself does not actually contain the dates for the first timeline, or the second timeline, the book in this regard needs to be either true or false when information relating to timelines is combined with the book itself. After all, the book is written by the very same author who delivers the sermons.
For those of you who wish to go into the book to prove the ‘truths’ – go for it, but remember, the very definition of truth given by Ron (as you will see) and of the Bible itself is that “no lie is of the truth”. As I outline all the FALSITIES of the book (even if there were only one) by that very definition, the book is FALSE.
The first few pages of the book concentrate on massive destructive events – thereby setting the ‘theme’ of concentration of the book.
Page 4, first paragraph: “The proof of the validity of my first book, and now this one, is in the timing and the destruction that follows, exactly as both books describe.” So, it is the TIMING that determines it’s validity.
Ron describes events to eventuate as similar to labour pains of a women – contractions get closer together, and more powerful – “such will be part of the proof of what is written here.”
Page 4, Paragraph 3: “What we have witnessed since those interviews a year ago will only increase in magnitude and frequency until we come to the last and final stage. This final stage is referred to as the great tribulation, which is prophesied to last for a final three and one half years. It will begin with one third of the United States being destroyed – followed by World War III.” (Well, it has begun for the second time according to Ron nearly 7 months ago – no 1/3 of the US destroyed – FAILED).
Page 6, 3rd Paragraph: Ron states that people can not believe things unless there is proof. That is part of the reason God chose to reveal end time events in the manner that He has – who are people to believe with all the different religions out there?
Page 8, 2nd Paragraph: “Only God Himself can prove what is true by bringing to pass exactly what He has said. Only the next few years can prove whether or not these two books are true and of God. If nothing happens, then you can know positively that this is complete fiction.” WELL, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED ON THE SECOND TRIBULATION YET, SAFE TO SAY – we know it's FICTION.
Page 8, 3rd Paragraph: “This is one of the main reasons these books have been written, so that people can begin to respond to the one Great Creator God when they see these things come to pass.” NOTHING COMING TO PASS YET, NEARLY 7 MONTHS INTO SECOND TRIBULATION. FAILED.
Page 9, 2nd Paragraph: “This period of time will BEGIN with one-third of the United States being destroyed.” – NOPE, NO DESTRUCTION – FAILED.
Page 10, Para 5: “This has much to do with why God is once again – one last time – sending His prophets (His two witnesses) into the world in the most powerful way yet.” – FAILED – What power is being shown? To the WORLD (page 11 para 3)? Again, we are nearly 7 months into this.
Page 11, para 3: “These two witnesses will be the most formidable prophets God has ever used in all 6,000 years of human history.” SPEAKS FOR ITSELF – FAILED, HASN’T HAPPENED.
[Note: For example, our "formidable prophets" fled ideaCity when sickened by a stand-up comic who blasphemed God, abandoning an opportunity to call down a plague on the blasphemer. Actually, I think Ron was more sickened by the favorable reception the audience gave the comic, so he should have called down a plague on them as well. Mike]
Page 16, Para 2: “The other witness will be revealed to the world during the time of the great tribulation – WITHIN the final the and one-half years of man’s era.” – FALSE – 2nd witness revealed during false first time line, and alluded to way before that.
Page 21, Para 3 : “When that seal (7th) is opened, you can rest assured, the final tribulation has arrived. God says that time will last for 3 ½ years. Prophecy shows that one third of the United States will be destroyed after this seal is opened.” OK – 7th Seal opened for the second time, we are now awaiting the supposed 2nd Trumpet – still no 1/3 destruction of the US.
Page 21, last para: “These two will know positively when God gives them this power, and from that time they know that exactly three and one-half years remain.” – well, now Ron is saying his “powers” will not be evident (this is the 2nd time he has ‘received’ his powers mind you) until after the 5th trumpet – another point proven FALSE.
Page 23, last para (this one is the most used) : “….the world will be shocked and in horror on the day that the seventh seal is opened.” The WORLD was NOT (nor were PKG members – either on the opening of the seal for the first or second time). FAILED.
Page 24, first para : “God has given to Jesus Christ the timing for the seals to be opened, and Jesus Christ in turn has given the timing to me.” Maybe a case of Chinese Whispers? Jesus heard from God wrong, or Ron heard wrong from Jesus? FALSE – First timeline (as stated Jesus gave to Ron) FAILED. (Remember, the book said events will happen EXACTLY as written in the 2 books.)
Page 24, para 3: “However, God is going to begin removing the skepticism of the world, especially once the seventh seal is opened.” – Not on the first timeline, and not yet on the second timeline – remember, he said the WORLD – another FAIL.
Page 26/27, Lies: “Lying is the outcome of people being right in their own eyes and stubbornly holding to their own viewpoint, regardless of EVIDENCE to the contrary.” OOOOOH, A TRUTH!!
Page 29, 2nd last para: “God states what should be obvious ‘…no lie is of the truth' 1 John 2:21” OOOoooh, another TRUTH!
Page 34, Para 1: “But when it comes to what you believe, can you admit error when it is pointed out to you? Most people cannot, because interference with one’s personal religious believes is more than they can bear.” Yet another TRUTH!
Page 51, After a number of pages outlining the confusion in the 3 major religions, 2nd para: “This book is the truth!” BY RON'S OWN STANDARDS, NO PART OF THE BOOK SHOULD BE WRONG – I’VE PROVED IT DOES CONTAIN ERRORS – NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH, THIS BOOK IS NOT THE TRUTH, BECAUSE IT CONTAINS VARIOUS LIES/FALSITIES.
Page 51: 3rd Para: “God is about to prove that this book is telling the truth! He will do so with power unleashed beyond any that He has ever used to reveal to man that He is their Creator.” – mmmm. Is God off to a slow start then? Even on the 2nd timeline?
Page 5, Last para: “NOW is the time God has chosen to begin revealing himself fully to this world.” YES, BY GIVING RON A FALSE FIRST TIMELINE, CHANGING THE SECOND ONE FROM THE FIRST (IE. 45-90 DAYS OUT THE WINDOW) AND GETTING OFF TO A VERY SLOW START ON THE SECOND? MMMM. Yes, revealing Himself, and Powerfully so to the World that is for sure – NOT. FAILED.
Page 57, para 3: “God’s 2 end time prophets will exercise great power, both in power displayed on the earth and in power of the revelation of God – more than all other prophets combined.” – First timeline, this most powerful prophet of all time got it wrong. And now nearly 7 months into the second timeline – no power. FAILED.
Page 57, para 4: “As I have stated, I am one of those prophets, and I am also the spokesman of both. That which I am telling you is not of me, it is from the God of Abraham.” SO IT’S NOT OF RON, SO GOD GOT IT WRONG THE FIRST TIME, AND IS NOT SURE WHAT TO DO THE SECOND TIME AROUND. WE’RE ALL WAITING, RON.
Page 58, Para 4: “God will PROVE whom He sends. Just as prophetic events will unfold with increasing power and frequency, so will I increase in power and recognition by others because of the job God has placed before me. It is Gods purpose, and He will do it.” – Again, we are on the 2nd timeline, and nearly 7 months into it. FAILED.
Page 60, Para 1: “The opening of the seventh seal will serve as a warning to the world that the final end time tribulation has come…” – FAILED – 2nd opening of the seventh seal, what warning?
Page 104, last paragraph : “God will humble the Church, and He will humble the world through end time events described in this book. It is by this very means that God will reveal through whom He is now working. Specifically regarding his two end time witnesses, it will be by the power given to them for destruction and plagues, not healing.” – FAILED – Again nearly 7 months into first timeline, no powers (remember, their powers and ministry are meant to go for 1260 days).
Page 104 last paragraph: “Escalating deaths in the leadership of the scattered groups will serve as a witness of who it is through whom God is working. It will not be done through miraculous signs of healing.” (Note: this section is talking of the 5th Thunder of the 6th Seal – we are now meant to be in the 2nd time of duration of the 1st trumpet of the 7th Seal– still no deaths in COG leadership.) FAILED.
Page 107, Paragraph 3: (Note – this is written after the book went to great length to describe Elijah’s petition of God to let the people know he was His servant – and God answered by burning the sacrifice.) “I have also made a petition to the Eternal God of Abraham. My petition is that this first phase of the Fifth Thunder (note: of the 6th Seal) be fulfilled exactly as it is written here.” – FAILED. Twice now we have been in the fifth thunder of the 6th Seal – we are now in the 7th, (for the second time) – petition NOT GRANTED.
Page 110, Para 2: (NOTE: Ron has stated in the past that the thunders will continue on into the great tribulation and increase in intensity – but..) “The Seven Thunders have much to do with how God will reveal his two witnesses. These thunders serve as a PRELUDE to the final tribulation, and the greater manifestation of those 2 witnesses.” – Again, we are in the second tribulation, awaiting 2nd trumpet – no such prelude. FAILED.
Page 111, Para 2: “The answer that I am who I say I am will be given by the events described in both books coming true EXACTLY has I have described. This will be the proof that I am God’s end time witness and spokesman. But before great power is given to me to perform miraculous events similar to those of Moses (but with far greater power), once the seventh seal is opened (note – not delayed until the 5th trumpet of the seventh seal!) and the final three and one half years of worldwide tribulation, God has reserved these seven thunders for me to declare.” FAILED.
Page 111, para 4: “All seven thunders are given as God’s proof that I am his end time prophet.” FAILED – as already stated in his books, thunders are prelude to tribulation. Thunders have not happened (except financial – again, Ron is no different to MANY others out there saying this).
Page 115, last para: “Before the seventh (and final) seal is opened, the Seven Thunders will become so pronounced that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth.” (again, Ron’s petition was that the fifth thunder of the 6th seal be fulfilled exactly as written, to prove he is God’s servant – so this thunder at least should have occurred BEFORE the seventh seal was opened – for the second time. For those who argue that I may not be willing to admit the truth, well I did follow Ron for the first 2 timelines – I think that proves I was walling to admit the truth – shame it turned out to be, yes FALSE.)
Page 118, para 1 (speaking of the first trumpet) : “When we are told that a third of all plant life will be destroyed, that is exactly what it means.” FALSE. 2nd blowing of the first trumpet, no such destruction. Remember, we have already covered the fact that events must occur EXACTLY has written in the book for it to be proven Ron is from God.
[Note: "exactly what it means"? Hmm. So why is Weinland spiritualizing the first trumpet away, saying that the vegetation being consumed is green money? Mike]
Page 118, para 1 “It should also be noted, that in the first trumpet there is fire mingled with blood. Blood means there will be much death when this event occurs. Most of it will be the death of animals and birds, but also a large number of people will die – into the tens of thousands.” FAILED – 2nd blowing of the first trumpet – no destruction, no “event”.
I will leave the remaining trumpets alone, as Ron says we are awaiting the blowing of the second, so no point bringing them up – yet.
Page 143, para 1: “Instead, they choose to hold onto their own religious ideas and beliefs, which are false. Therein is much of the problem and much of the reason why man's self rule must come to an end EXACTLY as described in this book.” – SORRY RON, NOT HAPPENING, EVEN THE SECOND TIME AROUND.
I will also leave out all the information Ron says about God, Jesus etc – as I will leave all that to the Theologians.
Lastly, page 244: “By the fall of 2008, the United States will have collapsed as a world power, or it will have begun its collapse and no longer exist as an independent nation WITHIN SIX MONTHS AFTER THAT TIME. There is a marginal, six-month window of time that God has not yet revealed concerning this specific moment of time. This will be revealed some time soon after the distribution of this book begins.” – FALSE. If this mysterious 6 months of time was revealed shortly after the distribution of the book, I am sure that God would have first let Ron know about the ENTIRE error of the first timeline. FAILED, hasn’t happened.
Well, this was a great way to spend a morning!
For those of you who still believe, willingly ignorant, I do actually understand as I was in your shoes for a time. It takes strength to admit that you were never led by God – it hurts. But, that pain is better than the pain to willingly follow someone who is proven to be false.
If a case like this went to Court, the matter would be closed.
Human nature is a beast in itself, we believe things because we WANT to believe them, for vastly different reasons from individual to individual.
I have undertaken this task not for current believers of Ron Weinland, as nothing can be done for them (please believe me on this – it will save you a lot of heartache, turmoil and arguments – you have to let them go and be there for them in 2012, or whenever Ron finally gives up) but for those investigating the validity of what Ron has to say.
He is false – it’s obvious.
What you do with this information is up to you.
The shame of all of it is, is that I personally believe a lot of what Ron has to say. If only he would admit he is in error – it’s arrogance and pride that prevents him.
In the course of reviewing Kirrily's piece, I found another gem. On page 58, 3rd paragraph:
"Either I am an eloquent, rationally-sounding lunatic or I am sent from God."Ron is obviously not sent from God. But we have a problem of false choices here. I can go with "lunatic" for sure, but having a bit of trouble with "eloquent" and "rationally-sounding". As far as "eloquent", I've discovered that after removing the embarrassing bits from his sermon describing his experience at ideaCity, most of the edits were removal of "uh"s and overly long pauses. Perhaps I shouldn't criticize, because I wouldn't do any better. But then my job does not require public speaking. As far as "rationally-sounding", perhaps maybe -- at least compared to Yisrayl Hawkins babbling about the "nukular baby".
For any who want to use the two-day fast at the end of January to explain why the Great Tribulation hasn't started, explain the following:
- How the divinely inspired book "2008 God's Final Witness" left room for it to be modified.
- How exactly the thunders have intensified in the 5 months since the fast to humble people to bring them to repentance. Cite statistics, not anecdotes (such as Michael Jackson's death). Also explain how all 7 thunders have intensified.
Wednesday, July 1, 2009
Here is Kirrily's story:
When I first heard of Ronald Weinland, my first thought was ‘who is this Pentecostal nutcase calling himself one of the witnesses of Revelation?’ However, I soon discovered that he was from one of the Churches of God. I knew I at least had to listen to what he had to say.
Previous to this, I had been part of Garner Ted Armstrong’s Intercontinental COG – and believed that when the Witnesses did come on the scene, that they would be from ONE of the COG’s (whichever the true one ended up being) – I believed this wholeheartedly.
After reading both of Ron's books, I was entirely convinced that indeed the end was near, and that it would happen as he stated. (Mind you, this is the third time in my 36 years of life I believed ‘the end was nigh’- which displays a certain pattern in my life, don’t you think!)
So, I contacted the Church of God - PKG and eventually was baptized (for the second time in a COG). The picture below was taken on the Gold Coast here in Australia the day I was baptized, on 12 January '08. From left to right are Wayne Matthews, another member, my mother, my husband, myself, Laura, Chris, and Ron.
Being part of PKG was great – enjoying the holy days, preparing for the tribulation (bulk food and supply purchases, storage, water provisions, warm clothes for nuclear winter etc, etc, etc) and being with a few like-minded people.
During the lead up to the first timeline's blowing of the first trumpet on 17 April 2008, I remember feeling physically sick as I believed it would be announced that the USA had been nuked when I turned on the TV. I had even convinced my husband to cut our holiday short so we could be at home when all of this started.
I remember feeling confused and angry on the day of 17/4/08 when nothing happened – what on earth was going on? Why had nothing happened as Ron had said? Was he false?
“No – he CAN’T be” I said to myself.
The remainder of this is from my recollection of events. My memory has never been fantastic (I’m only 36, I know), but I believe this is relatively accurate.
After the 17th of April, Ron then said that the damage of the first trumpet would be a process of destruction over a period of 45-90 days and then the second trumpet would be blown. Every day I was glued to the news, feeling sick to the stomach.
It was sometime after this (I do not remember the timeframe) that Ron admitted (somewhat) that he has ‘misunderstood’ and was ‘shown’ another truth which he would reveal on the Last Great Day of the Feast of '08. [Note: This happened June 21, 2008. Mike (DDTFA)]
Turns out we did not have to wait that long, as long before the Feast of '08 he delivered his 50th Truth being that Christ's return would be on Pentecost 2012. The 50th truth made perfect sense to me, given Ron's explanation of the timing. [Note: Ronnie announced the 50th "truth" and new timeline the following Saturday, June 28, 2008]
At this time my mother left PKG. However, I stayed – believing my mother had not been permitted to ‘see’ this new truth by God.
Ron told us to question ourselves, question our own faith – and how terrible it was that we probably were feeling very stupid in front of our loved ones, our family, when the things we had been warning them about did not eventuate. In other words, he turned his own failure back on us. Instead of admitting his error, he had us focus on our own shortcomings.
I must say, I did feel stupid – but not only for the obvious reasons. You see, those of us who believed in God’s ‘Truths’ wanted God to call our families so badly. Our husbands/wives/brothers/mothers/fathers and friends would begin to keep the Sabbath, the Holy Days, etc – then we would know that they too will see the millennium and be with us! How joyous that would have been.
If we warned them, and told them what was going to take place, who Ron was, etc – and those things DID HAPPEN, then God could use that to reveal His truths and they would begin to ‘SEE’ as God desired them to in His time.
When the failure of Ron’s first timeline occurred, I knew that my friends and family would never believe anything I had to say in this regard again. They already hated that I did not keep Christmas and would go away to a stupid Feast every year – to them the failure of Ron was just another confirmation of ALL I believed was false – including other doctrines such as the Sabbath.
As I kept believing Ron, it was very hard on my marriage (second marriage), and my friends could just not understand why I kept believing in someone who said ‘If it does not happen EXACTLY as is stated in my books, I will declare myself a false prophet’ – yet didn’t.
I did as I was told by Ron, and repented from my VERY bad attitude on how I felt with the failure of the first timeline, and continued with PKG.
I no longer watched the news. I no longer searched for items such as earthquake results – as I did not want to ‘ruin’ my faith with evidence that no escalation whatsoever was occurring except for financial ‘thunder’. But being in the financial services industry, what Ron had stated is no news to me as many of my peers believe we are headed for an unprecedented depression globally in the next year or two.
Interestingly, Wayne would often send news items to us via email – an earthquake here, fires there, etc etc. I did not even read them, since to me they were just normal newsworthy events – nothing spectacular. Again, I did not want to ‘ruin’ my faith and admit that no escalation was occurring. It was easier to bury my head in the sand and concentrate on ‘spiritual’ matters.
Coming up now to December '08 – and ‘here we go again’. What would the first trumpet be? What destructive events would take place?
I recall that during the Feast of '08 Laura herself directly said to me that she believed by Jan '09 that things would be ‘really bad’. She told me that she had purchased things on interest free, no payments for 3 years, and that we should do the same – it would never have to be paid back after all. She did say that we should do it only if we could afford to pay for it anyway – but this attitude seemed wrong to me somehow. I ignored my feelings. [Note: This past Saturday, Weinland expressed regret for making purchases that he unexpectedly has to pay for. Mike(DDTFA)]
Well, December came and went, Jan '09 saw a new US president take office, and Ron tossed the second 45-90 day timeline for nuclear explosions out the window.
This was too much. Too much had changed, and Ron seemed to be losing it. Too much was going against what his two books had stated. Just one example: the second witness would not be revealed until the beginning of the 3 ½ year period. Well, she was revealed to the world LONG before the beginning of Ron’s second tribulation. That is just ONE falsity in Ron’s books. I will let the people who can be bothered outline the rest.
Leaving PKG was one of the hardest things in my life I have had to do. I truly loved the people I was with – Wayne and Chris were truly like my spiritual mum and dad, Nathan and Sharna were truly like brothers and sisters. To this day, I love and miss them – and know that in 2012 when Jesus does not return – that they will speak to me again (unless a third timeline comes in).
I have gone through many different emotions since leaving, and I am still. I was not angry – at first, that came later. There are so many things now that I question.
The main thing I find alarming, is my own nature – my own disposition to believing that ‘the end is nigh’. This could be for a number of reasons, and I will not bore you by listing them here.
The battle is with myself – what do I do now? I do still believe the truths that I first learned with Garner Ted – the Sabbath, Holy Days, the false traditional Christianity belief system etc. These truths I learned with GTA and through PKG I will always believe. But do I have the strength to APPLY and OBEY these ‘truths’ with no organisation to follow, to lead me? I do not know, to be honest.
After all, I believed God led me to GTA's group – but they were false. I am not even going to mention the additional times I thought God had 'led' me into a myriad of different pentecostal churches – 'Rapture next 2 years', 'Armageddon very close' etc etc – you get the picture. I then believed that God led me to PKG – but they were false. How would I trust for myself that God was leading me ANYWHERE now? How could I?
I believe that God calls people – and it is only those he calls that can see the ‘truth’ – I thought I was one of them. The only conclusion I can come to, is that God does NOT want me to see, and that I am NOT called. What other explanation is there?
I believed Barry Smith (Pentecostal – when I was one in those days!) that the Rapture would be in 2000. I believed GTA – the end was near. I believed Ron – Jesus would be back in 2011. And I believed Ron again when he said Jesus would be back in 2012.
How could I believe anyone again? Really….. HOW?
I believe Ron is sincere – and if he had admitted he was false the first time, or even the second time – that would have been OK by me – after all, we are all human. But he won’t admit that he is false – therefore to me, he is both dangerous and a joke. He deserves to be mocked, as promises he himself made with words through his own lips were not kept.
As for his followers, I no longer have any sympathy for them. Their pride and desire to be RIGHT alone is what is keeping them there. I myself stayed as long as I did for those reasons – it wasn’t until I left that I admitted it to myself.
The truly sick thing about all this, is Ron’s dealings with his ‘mockers’. You see, Ron teaches that God calls – God is the one who lets people ‘see’. Take Mike from DDTFA for example.
Ron would teach that Mike does not ‘see’ as God has not ‘called’ him. Mike is blind, he does not understand. Ron would teach that someone like Mike would die during the tribulation, and be resurrected after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and be permitted to live another lifetime to be given a chance to see God’s ways, repent, and live. Mike would then be GIVEN the ‘truths’ so he could choose to obey.
The disciples once asked Jesus ‘why do you talk to them in parables’ and Jesus’ replied in essence ‘so they don’t understand’.
During his murder, Jesus said ‘Forgive them Father, for they do not understand’.
Instead of Ron saying to God of Mike ‘Forgive him Father, he does not know what he does’ – Ron instead curses him to die slowly (then quickly) from the inside. That is plain wrong. I could understand, given what Revelation says about the witnesses ‘powers’ - for example, cursing the people who KNEW THEY WERE THE WITNESSES, AND BELIEVED THEY WERE THE WITNESSES and wanted to cause them harm BECAUSE they were the Witnesses. But not someone who was ‘blind to the truth’ and did not believe they were the witnesses.
After all, Ron said that was the purpose of the 2 books – they were not addressed to believers but rather were to reveal to the WORLD (people like Mike for example) that Ron indeed is a Witness, a Prophet. I won’t speak for Mike, but I believe that if everything had indeed occurred as Ron said they would, that Mike would have believed that Ron was who he said he was!
When you write something, and it does NOT occur, and you say that you will admit it if you are wrong – AND YOU DO NONE OF THIS – you deserve to be mocked – simple. Ron said a great number of things, time and time again, that have NOT eventuated. Yet he still carries on with his ‘thing’.
To people out there who continue to believe – because you ‘see the truth’ – well, good on you – go for it. You deserve no respect, no sympathy – you are fools following a greater fool. Don’t come crying to me in 2012. You yourselves are causing great pain, great anguish – just ask yourselves the damage these ‘witnesses’ are doing. A number of people will now not believe the REAL witnesses when they turn up, because of the damage Ron has done.
God will deal with Ron in His time.
In the meantime, I have learned a great deal about myself during this painful process. I still have a lot more to learn.
Yes – I am angry. Yes, I am lost.
I know Ron is false – by his own lips, I know he is false. Why won’t he quit? I no longer care.
If I can help anyone in the same boat as me, or prevent others from going to where I did – I will. Other than that, I really don’t care anymore about Ron and his delusions, and his deluded followers.
I never listened to another one of Ron's sermon after Jan '09, and I will never listen to another.
As for the ‘truths’ (ie. Sabbath, Holy Days etc) – I will always believe them. As for believing someone else again – well, God would REALLY have to help me. It would take A LOT to go down this path again.
I continue to watch and wait – but more importantly, I am now living my life again.
Mike, thank you for your blog, and thank you for the time you have spent privately letting me vent and work through things. I have never met you, but you have truly acted as a friend who has simply listened, and been a shoulder to cry on. It has meant so much to me.
Kirrily, you're welcome. I'm glad you've made your escape and that that I was able to help in some small way. And thank you for sharing your story.
Relating to what you said about Laura's financial advice, here's what Ron had to say about his financial dealings in his last sermon. (I wonder this statement survived Jeremy's editing session.)
Our finances generally are at the edge. Our credit card. We may
have one there. But we may be maxed out. Especially for many of us right now because of where we thought we were in a moment in time. And we made some choices there. And all of us have ... There are things I purchased I wish I hadn't purchased now. I thought we had a few months here and we're going to be in this and it's really not going to matter too much. And I would have made some different decisions. But I'm in it now. And some people had situations now where that's put them in a horrible situation. And that's the way it is. But we all learn from it. We can all grow from it Every one of us. And grow in some wisdom there.
I wish more would learn from this. Learn to stop listening to false prophets like Ronald Weinland. Grow in wisdom and test a teacher before blindly accepting what he has to say.
I wonder if Weinland really acted on his prophecies and made purchases expecting that he wouldn't have to pay for them. Or if he's just saying that he did so as to deflect the wrath of his followers who did. Either way, it says something about the man.