During the WCG break up after Joe Sr's infamous sermon in Atlanta and repeated a week later at the Big Sandy campus, Ronnie resigned in March of 1995 and incorporated the following month as the United Church of God of Toledo, Inc. Back then, the "spirit of Indianapolis" was alive and ex-WCG members were promised that the new organization would be different when it came to governance, and would work with local church boards. Hence UCG-AIA (an international ASSOCIATION). But after a few years, the "spirit of Indianapolis" soon went by the wayside and I suspect there are few if any independent local boards associated with UCGdom.
Back to Ron's story. Weinland joined up with UCG in '95. Then he thundered about financial misappropriations in UCG in an email sent to other UCG elders at the end of 1996 and possibly in a letter as well sent during the first few days of 1997. After campaigning on the issue for several more months, he resigned from UCG in May of 1997, taking most of his Toledo congregation with him. The associated corporation was retitled as "The Church of God, Inc." The local congregation continued on, with church members voting as members of the corporation to hire Weinland as their pastor. But Weinland was expanding his horizon beyond Toledo and the surrounding region accessible in a day trip. One of the members started a small web site for the church. Sermon tapes were sent to those outside the Toledo area who requested them. In January of 1998, he published the first issue of "Newswatch" which was published intermittently over the next several years.
As a result of Ron's outreach program, he managed to attract as his own followers some of the WCG ex-members ("the scattering") from other areas. These followers included Johnny Harrell and others in Georgia, and also more from other areas such as Texas. Tithes continued to be collected by the corporation governed by a local lay board, and is reported to have accumulated to around $300,000 by early 2000. Ron began to feel an ownership of the members outside the Toledo area. He began hinting that the tithes from out-of-town members should be handled separately.
Matters came to a head between Weinland and members of the board at a meeting held on Saturday evening, January 22, 2000, right after Weinland finished a sermon series entitled "Spiritual Idolatry". Weinland wanted to spend some of that tithe money on a 4-color brochure, of printing quality just like the literature his spiritual idol Herbert Armstrong sent out, to attract yet more from "the scattering". The lay board was less convinced and Weinland left the meeting under somewhat less than calm demeanor. There was a continuation meeting the following Tuesday at which the conflict continued.
On January 29, 2000, Weinland delivered a nearly-3-hour sermon entitled "Am I Following Jesus Christ?" which was later distributed on not one but two cassette tapes. He started the sermon by explaining that it would be one of the most important sermon he'd given in years, and that he had to deliver a long message in a single session because of the timing and this would also be one of the hardest sermons he'd ever given. He canceled a trip to Lubbock, Texas to stay in Toledo to address the problem.
Ron claimed that he had almost resigned in response to an email he had received the night before, but was hanging in there (he was not going to Steamboat Springs to make his living building port-a-potties for his brother Steven after all). The crisis could split the congregation, but that was OK. He didn't care about the money and could start all over again, but was taking a principled stand for continuing to do what he was doing.
Ron said that he would send out the tapes from this sermon -- he would not be a hypocrite by hiding his group's problems after criticizing those of other groups.
During the sermon he played with the member's emotions. He talked about the elderly shut-ins "helped" by his tape program. A few minutes later, he sighs and said "You know there's some wrong spirit in here today, brethren. And it's not God's. There's some pride and haughtiness, I wish some individuals could have a camera looking at their face." I wish I had a videotape of Ron's face as he delivered this sermon, claiming that he loved them all, very deeply.
After a 10-minute break to allow time to switch cassette tapes, he again confronted his congregation by asking "am I saying something wrong, reading people's expressions?" He claimed that he was not chewing out the board, and has respect for them.
A year earlier he had sent a letter to board members Gary Klar and Terry Wrozek stating that he was not comfortable with out-of-area tithe funds being under local control. He stated they were sitting on a great deal of money, and wanted to have a glossy booklet to send out. He proposed a second corporation to handle out-of-town funds, because after all those funds exceeded those generated by the local group in the Toledo area.
Ron repented of reusing the bylaws which he copied from someone else, explaining that they were not Godly. He presented new draft bylaws to be voted on by the members a couple of weeks later, on February 12, as a replacement of the existing bylaws. Under the new Godly bylaws, members of the church would no longer be members of the corporation. That burden would be removed from them and only members of the corporation would be "leading elder" Ronald Weinland as the first chairman and a board of elders. Elders chosen by ---- Ronald Weinland. As an aside, the restrictions for the building fund would be changed to allow spending it to rent facilities. No word on the size of the building fund, but this proviso would allow it to be depleted as it would be spent for those ongoing expenses. This would free other funds for other purposes. I can't say if there is any relation, but 5 years later Weinland had his own building fund, purchasing a $381,000 home in northern Kentucky and putting enough money down that if he had a mortgage the holder did not require that he pay property taxes into escrow.
The sermon ended with his then favorite elder Terry Wrozek leading a song. After which Weinland himself gave the closing prayer, not risking someone else providing a different take on the sermon.
In another post, I will be discussing what happened the week following this sermon.
Note: I've allowed the discussion in the comments to the last few posts kind of ramble off-topic -- with a couple of Weinland's followers participating it's been rather informative. While I'll continue to allow some latitude in the comments to those other posts, Sheriff Mike is in town on this thread. Let's keep the comments for this post on topic, which is Weinland's governance methods in general.
217 comments:
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I had to delete a few comments on the last post for rule violations.
Also, lets keep any commnents on this post more or less on topic: Ronald Weinland's governance tactics and if not that at least Weinland in general.
Why doesn't anyone call him out on this BS.
If he wanted to show he was truly humble, he should sell that big home and all the fancy stuff, (seeing how he won't need it here in 3 years anyway) give that money back to the people tithing their last nickles to keep rw traveling...and then move to lower price hill where there would be plenty of soles to save.
or is he not that kind of final witness?
Ahhhhh those heady days!
This takes me way back, Mike.
Why didn't anyone call BS on him back then? Some people were, and those people were getting chewed out.
Everyone who frequents here should be familiar with the typical Ronald Weinland useless and self-serving "you have a bad spirit" letters of correction. That's the response they get now, that's the response they got then. And if anyone pressed the issue, they got threatened to be expelled.
For everyone (the majority) who didn't call BS on him, it is my personal opinion that they were simply not fully aware of what was going on. That something was up was obvious, but few had a clue what.
The board members (most of whom are respectable men) either didn't think it correct to tell the congregation openly what had happened privately in the meetings, or they didn't think the people worthy of the privilege of knowing. I donno.
And even the board didn't know all of what was going on. No one could have predicted the scale of Ron's delusions of grandeur, meanwhile Terry Wrozeck was secretly acting as a double-agent playing the neutral board member while running to Ron with bits of info and what not.
This tale has all the ingredients of a Washington D.C. corruption scandal. Yet somehow the One Witnesses keeps attracting followers, and retains many old ones.
Where's the sack cloth???
No need to be exasperated about ol Ron and his gains over the years and the expense of the many, not in the long run mind ya.
Just imagine for a moment, when all is said and all is done - complete, the discussion that will had between Ron & Jesus...
Imagine a midsize room done all in white with decorated mozaic floor. A smaall mahogany etched table and 2 chairs, one chair on either side. Jesus sitting in one with a look of hurt perplexity and in the other sits Ron attempting to answer Jesus's question of "Why did you treat the least of these and ergo me so wretchedly?".
To make matters worse add God standing behind Jesus with a rather large frown on his face as he hears Ron explain the details of his reasons...
It's not a pretty story...
Ron knows that to keep the money coming in, he has to sell it using more and more tantilizing messages, with more and more outlandish claims of superiority. Ron is exploiting the weak for his own personal gain.
Thanks for this info Mike! I now understand more about what happened in the early cog-pkg days. However, I see nothing wrong that Ron did. His goal then was to worn the church the end was near and let them know what had happened so as many as possible could repent. The board was a financial oversight group if my understanding is correct. However, they started trying to use power by trying to stop Ron from using the tithes from publishing a booklet to worn the scattered Church on what was happening and what happened and why. Sounds like this book was Time Is Running Out. Those of you who seam to think the Board had the right to stop Ron from using tithes to worn others answer me this question. What else could have been done with $300K that would have done more and served a better purpose? I don't understand how anyone can have sympathy for the Board. Ron didn't care about decreasing the congregation, nore should he have done so. If someone doesn't believe the truth going to meet certain people every week on the Sabbath isn't going to do much. It then becomes a social gathering and although there is nothing wrong with them there is no need to have this under the guise of continuing with the Church of God when the truth has been rejected somewhere in the mind. In general people don't take religion seriously. They go somewhere every week because they may have had a family tradition of doing so, want to feel good about themselves, etc. Once the board began to vote for implementations and non-implementations, they began rejecting God's governence in the church, from the top down. I don't mind answering questions, but I would love it if people didn't ask me the same questions over and over again. An example of this is someone who may once again ask me to let them know where Church government is described in the bible. My answer will be the same in the same way that whenever someone asks what 400*400 the answer will always be 160000.Having the Board in the first place was probably Ron still in spiritual sleep. Ron aknowleges his past condition quite frequently. Taking the Board out was the only way.
I'll end with this.
Considering the board was not on bord for God's work in terms of publishing the booklets, God's work wouldn't be able to be done. All options were on the board and eventually Ron got tired of dealigng with the board who clearly were bored of staying on board. They rejected the truth and Ron throwing them overboard. Is anyone hear bored from reading how much I wrote about the bored? At least I'm not osting this on a message board as many more would read about the Board and get bored.
WO: Another A+ for your reasoned response. No one can accuse you of not doing your homework! I had the same response to the article ... quite informative but where exactly is the problem? Ron is responsible for obeying God as God reveals things to him. In the case in point, as WO pointed out, the whole Church had been spewed out and were still asleep during this "board" time. As God began waking people up there was obviously some problems with those who wanted to keep sleeping.
So, Observer and WO: What's your proof that Weinland is a prophet other than he says that he is?
It's interesting, HWA never wanted the "title" of apostle, but people called him that. Weinland is really quick to heap titles on himself, "prophet", "witness", "chief spokesman witness". If he hadn't adulated himself with those titles, given the complete and utter failure of all his "predictions", I doubt ANY of his followers would have called him a prophet, or witness, or spokesman.
It seems to me, from the Bible, that you bear fruit and then are given the title and set apart. Weinland hasn't born any fruits of prophecy, yet he takes that title upon himself? Cart before the horse. He uses his titles to try to prove what he is saying, which isn't the way it works according to examples in the Bible.
This post is actually part 1 of 2, I'm still working on the other part and plan to publish it in a few days.
But I'll go ahead and give a spoiler. Ron was not able under the bylaws at the time to fire board members. So he disfellowshipped them to make them ineligible.
That's not all that he did, but that will be covered in part 2.
I expect the response from a couple of commenters here will be essentially that the end justifies the mean.
Ron should have disfellowshiped the board because they did not believe what Ron believed?
Ah-wha?
The Board is the government of the Church not the pastor. The pastor or leader is the top man/woman of the church, not the dictator totalitarian of the church. Jesus on the other hand is the KING of the church and should/does have total veto power over anything done in the church, not Ron. Ron is simply a pastor, part of the leadership of the Church, not "THE" Leadership. For Ron is mortal and sinful and makes mistakes, so to put one person in Jesus's position as head of the Church is to invite them to be corrupt and make mistakes without oversight. That is what a board does, oversite of the entire Church, not just the Pastor and can hire/fire said pastor or put the whole affair to a vote of the congregation. If Jesus as head of the church wants any issue within the church to go this way or that he will make it so and if he does not then so be it.
WO would have one believe that the church is lead from the top down, well OK that is one of the ways and has its good and bad points. But the Board was the TOP, not Ron. Ron was "hired" and "allowed" to have his position by the board and by the congregation. Ron then instigated a power play to take full power over all and take the place of Jesus all the time saying "In the name of Jesus Christ".
But hey, if you want to be ruled by Ron then go for it. We suggest against it but it's not our lives, it's yours. Now if Ron where a prophet or something he would hold more weight in the matter... but he'd have to get his prophecy right without mistake (as a sign from God who does not make mistakes) and that has run into some trouble I hear?
:-)
Mark,
That's like trying to catch your shadow.
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." (with sacks of many cloths for much vacationing) OK, THAT may have been uncalled for.
:D
Ron has had at least one false start to the beginning of his Witness ministry. It won't be long before he has to revise things again. I have come to believe that a freight train load of evidence otherwise won't convince Weinland supporters.
Some may continue to believe still when Ron changes the timeline again. That's too bad so sad, but that's they way it seems to be. You can go around in circles as you have no doubt seen. I am at the point where I'll only have conversation with someone who answers questions raised. Otherwise, conversations go everywhere and nowhere.
The tick tock of time will be Ron's undoing. I'll pick out the changes he drops in his sermons. Having once been under such sway as a JW, I rather enjoy it. I just wish Ron was a better speaker.
Dill Weed
As an aside...
If Ron's thoughts on the subject of government are get the board/congregation to vote you in and then use the powers that come with the office to abolish any more voting and so stay in power I would like to introduce him to another such thinker who used the same trick to a much greater extent than Rons little congregation to gain much greater power... Mr. Hitler, would you come out on stage for a moment and give Ron your testimony?
Ah yes, I remember this. I read about this story a few months ago in the archives of this blog.
There was a letter from a former member which exposed Weinland's later dealings, right? There was something about a questionnaire which he gave to his members, and that everyone who did not answer the questions to his liking were immediately disfellowshipped.
I don't feel like hunting this stuff down again, so I'll just wait for part 2.
Mark, I believe Ron is a prophet because he revealed many of the prophesies that already came to pass as well as what will come to pass. The time cycles are also a way in which he was shown God was working with him. In 1997 1900 years after the book of Revelation was written, it began being revealed to him. Also, the fiftieth truth proves to me Weinland is a prophet no matter what you may think of that statement.
HWA did indeed state he was an Apostle. Here is one excerpt from an article, The Nineteen year Time Cycles And What My Commission Is.
The Apostle Paul, telling us under God's inspiration of how he came to KNOW God's Truth, said: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is NOT AFTER MAN. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." He received it, as he implies, from an appearance of the living Christ, in person, even after His resurrection and ascension.
I, too, received Christ's Gospel NOT from MAN. I, too, certify that the Gospel I have taught and proclaimed is NOT AFTER MAN. I entered no theological seminary, where I would have received a particular denominational teaching and set of doctrines and practices. I was not taught by MAN. But I was taught, as was Paul, by the revelation of Jesus Christ -- Paul from the living Christ IN PERSON -- who is the Word of God in PERSON -- but I from the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD -- which is the SAME revelation, now set in print.
Excerpt ends here.
Whisper and Dill Weed, the Board had to go. No way around that. The bible does state church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers is the way it was designed. Again, I can't remember where it is from the top of my head. What's important to me is that I did read it in the Bible. This is no excuse for me not knowing the Bible, just a fact about myself right now. Note that board members are not included in the government description! Armstrong had to get some reformists out as well in his day.
The truths voted on by councils and board meetings do not indicate truth. The seven Ecumenical Councils are a testimony to this and many actually have the seven councils as part of their confession of faith. Were the truths that cog-pkg believed at the time given by the board? Did God give it to the board? Or were they given to Ronald Weinland. I'm sure the board didn't say we figured out that the church fell asleep spiritually. We had a vote on it and it passed so I guess that's what God says. God isn't a parliamentary democracy. It doesn't matter what some group of people vote. Regardless of what any council/board/whatever you want to call it proclaims. Regardless, the truth will be the truth and the lie a lie.
I'm looking forward to part 2!
Mike, do you have experience in journalism? You should have/should consider it. You could be doing something like this and getting paid for it.
Hey I used spell check for this post. I use it for everything else but for some reason I haven't been using it for this blog.
People seam to think I should so maybe I should .
Thanks to everyone here for making posting on this blog a hobby of mine. When the time comes, what is learned here will benefit all.
WO, on the topic of spelling, make sure you take note of the difference between seem and seam.
Thanks to everyone here for making posting on this blog a hobby of mine. When the time comes, what is learned here will benefit all.
Strange comment. Do you mean that the knowledge of Weinland's heresies, errors and lies will benefit all (which I believe it will), or do you believe that your knowledge that you are 'teaching us' will somehow benefit people who post here? If it's the latter, you may want to deflate that ego. If I misread, then never mind.
"God isn't a parliamentary democracy. It doesn't matter what some group of people vote. Regardless of what any council/board/whatever you want to call it proclaims."
Whom voted Ron into the position as "pastor" of the church exactly back in the day... well the Board did. So by your reasoning above Ron should definatly not have been pastor of that church as the board had no right to vote him in? Try to stay away from the "the board was a vehicle for God to vote Ron in" because then why did Ron disfellowship them if they are of Holy origin being used by God?
You see, this goes round and round.
Fact is the Board did have the Power, gave some of it to Ron and Ron used it to usurped them. Ron disfellowshiped members of the board to gain the $$MONEY$$... if they had let him have it in the first place he would not have disfellowshiped them as they were spiritually fine. oh, but stop Ron (the person they hired) from getting his hands on the $$MONEY$$ and then they are worthy of being cast out!
"Regardless, the truth will be the truth and the lie a lie".
Amen brother, aint it the truth! Ron like all others are full of both, but if he is a Witness Given Specifically by God then Ron has no lies as far as Prophecy, so why does he continue to miss the target? Why is Gerald Flurry still alive? Why is Obama in office as president? Why does America have all its tree's and grass?
An unintentional lie is still a lie. Is Ron trying to stop lieing or are his previous lies just coming to light one at a time?
:-)
J, I do think the truth will be learned by all, including others who post here at some point in time. This has nothing to do with my ego. God lead me to understand what I now understand. If it weren't for a few things like me visiting certain websites in the past, I may have not heard the name Ronald Weinland or Herbert W Armstrong in the same way the guy across the street hasn't. Therefor if someone believes what I know now by reading my posts, God still lead them to believe it. The glory is always to God.
Whisper, God made Ron minister. It was Ron who decided to break away from UCG after the money scandals. I don't know why and how Ron was made minister I do know God gave him the truth. Also, Ron was a minister in WCG and then a minister in UCG. It is sencible that he would have been the Pastor at COG Inc. I'm surprised that he was able to register with that name as one would think that it would have been taken.
Again, God gives truth through the ministry If he wanted to, he could have given it to the board. But he gave it to Ron!
Lastly, Ron wanted the money to be used for printing and sending out booklets to the scattered Church. Again, someone tell me what is wrong with this and find a better possible alternative to do God's work!
WO wrote, amazinglyMark, I believe Ron is a prophet because he revealed many of the prophesies that already came to pass as well as what will come to pass.
Tell me, which of his prophecies do you think came to pass already? (Other than maybe the economy)
And if you say it's the thunders have intenstified, cite actual believable statistics from a reliable source, not cherry picked headlines.
"I do think the truth will be learned by all, including others who post here at some point in time."
Sigh, I've heard that before.
There's a difference between thinking something will happen and hoping it will. Please don't generalize. By thinking that we'll all suddenly have a light bulb go off in heads and follow RW, you are insulting us. I can equivocally say that I will NEVER believe Weinland, so don't think otherwise.
Anyway, back on topic. Weinland's shameless power play was deceptive and ungodly. You CAN'T spin that into being some godly act. God does not cheat the system to suit His needs. Ron wanted his own selfish way, and then cheated to get there.
Someone needs to make a comprehensive list of EVERYTHING Weinland has ever "prophesied." No matter how small or inconsequential. Then next to each one, have columns and checkmarks for each:
"Has come to pass"
"Failed to come to pass"
"Has not come to pass yet"
(After all, if he IS God's Prophet, he should have an uncanny ability to predict the future since God knows all things, and tells Ron what he needs to know)
I've love to see how RW has stacked up quantifiably. (Of course, I already know the answer) Kirrily recently did something very similar by debunking several passages from his book where he stated things that should have come to pass before now (July 2009). WO inexplicably said those things have not come to pass YET, but we can see the truth there.
In trying to stay on topic, RW's governance tactics.
He did (does) the same kind of thing a dictator in a banana republic would do, which should have been a red flag for those around him. And that is, as everyone on this blog can see, consolidate power.
Whether a third world dictator, or in a religious organization, the tactics are the same, because these kind of people are all cut from the same cloth.
Once you get your hands on some of the controlling strings, you use it to consolidate power, which again, should always be a red flag indicating their intentions. Why nobody stood up to RW in the beginning, I don't know.
A quick comment to Weinland Observer and Observer. I wish you could see me as I'm typing this, because you would see I'm smiling
as I say this. But you two guys know darn well that RW said Obama wouldn't take office, and yet here he is, you can't deny it. And you're too smart to deny other failures as well, because they are too obvious.
My point? I think you two are getting your kicks trying to pull peoples chains, and remember, I'm smiling, so take this in a good spirit. But c'mon guys, fess up.
Mike, I have already stated how the thunders are sounding more and more loudly.
J, there is nothing more I can say about the board. Perhaps you would get bored if I did anyway, because I would end up saying the ssame thing. UCG is very similar to what Church Of God Inc had. A council of twelve decides on doctrine and claims it will have its list completed and that it has largely been done. I read the website before. Promise me one thing. If/when you read Mystery Of The Ages, let me know if any of your beliefs changed. Armstrong specifically condemned doctrinal councils, and rightfully so. I don't believe I insulted anyone with my last post. It was true. God has a plan for everyone, and this makes nobody more important than another person.
I actually have a lot of respect for everyone here in case you haven't noticed.
P.S. Have you ever heard any sermons that mentioned Herbert W Armstrong? You mentioned yesterday that UCG actually did not have a ban on them.
P.S. Random fact. Apparently UCG has a bible study group in my city, moncton. I personally don't know anyone from UCG or any COG group, but I'm just hoping there will eventually be someone there who gets called. Wouldn't be able to find a way to go over or anything like that. However I might end up meeting them somewhere. That would be nice.
RKPDRMR, I had a little chuckle of my own. It is about how much time some people spend on Weinland when they "know he's false."
personally, I tend to stop examining false teachings when I realize they are false. But Ron is different for all. Even I kept on listening to him when I thought he was false.
Timeline revelations are the reasons why the President's around.
As for the board, enough was said earlier on this post and previous posts by me.
WO: You have not answered my question.
In a comment to a prior post, you threw out a bunch of words talking about a few dead celebrities and some possible conflicts which might but haven't developed. Just a few anecdotes.
I'm looking for actual statistics from reliable sources which show that each and every one of the thunders have clearly intensified since the 2-day fast. Answer my question -- don't just blather on about a few events and then claim you've explained that the thunders have intensified. You haven't even come close.
WO: Armstrong is mentioned quite often in UCG sermons. Not every time because there's often a great deal to talk about. 2008's UCG Feast Video was on the start of Radio Church of God and was predominantly about Armstrong's work. Also, a couple years back, Aaron Dean gave an entire sermon about Armstrong in my area. I believe Weinland started the rumor that he was a banned subject. Whether or not he did, it's a lie.
If you've read Weinland's book, then you would know that members of UCG are not his target. He targets people who left WCG in 1986 and never returned as well as people off the internet searching doomsday topics. I think dust cover of his recent book says something like that. Scattered brethren, not including UCG. (My biased personal opinion: those people are easier to hoodwink). So I wouldn't expect anymore UCG-to-PKG converts. ;)
As for governance, I don't believe a church needs to be headed by one man? Why? Well, someone else said that already: Jesus is the head of the church. It's man's job to run things in his absence the way we think he would want it to be run. That doesn't mean that one person should emulate the role of Christ by taking absolute authority over the church. When that happens, you get Joseph Tkach, Gerald Flurry and Ronald Weinland.
God may appoint someone for the job, but how am I to know? It's not written in the Bible that Weinland should head the Church, so I would have to take his word for it. Slim chance. I see NOTHING wrong with checks and balances. Weinland is a man, and is subject to sin. Don't think for a second he's done anything that he should not have done just because he has no man to answer to.
If God's government is to be through one man, then Ron sinned big time back in 1995 when he left WCG. Joe Tkach had taken HWA's mantle of authority. So if HWA had the authority to change Pentecost from Monday to Sunday, then Tkach had the authority to do away with the sabbath and tithing.
Once you accept the principal of the primacy of the WCG Pastor General, you don't get to change it, just because you disagree with a particular change.
Ron Weinland --- the man of sin.
Honestly, when Michael Jackson, Farrah Fawcett et al, died two weeks ago, I expected Ronnie to totally run with it. I know in the past that he said that celebrity deaths would be a sign of prophecy. When Steve Irwin died a couple years back, my mother gloated that prophecy was being fulfilled.
So after realizing that MJ died the same day as Fawcett, I thought "oh boy, here it comes!"....and then nothing. What a disappointment! Ronnie loves to twist current events to suit his needs, but he totally dropped the ball here. (Unless I missed something in one of his sermons)
RKPDRMR: No president taking office was not a prophesy but a prediction based on the understanding of the first time line. This one should be obvious and I for one never thought of it as a prophesy. As I said before, just because a person has the office of prophet ( a job description, not a title) does not mean that everything he says is prophetic. This is not "rocket science".
As I said before, just because a person has the office of prophet ( a job description, not a title) does not mean that everything he says is prophetic.
Oh? Do you have any basis for that conclusion?
So, being a "prophet" is just a job description? We're talking spiritual matters here. I'm pretty sure Jesus' role as Messiah or Moses' role as prophet were not just job descriptions. That's what they WERE.
This is not "rocket science".
If a rocket scientist talked about upcoming rockets, would that not be rocket science?
Yes J, if a scientist talks about upcoming rocket it would have to be rocket science.
As for the man of sin comments, Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. This means following God as Christ follows him. When someone such as a minister ceases, then you need to find where God is. I don't think that question was really calling for an answer. However I'll answer all questions here, within reason obviously.
Observer, I think that even though they don't share our beliefs everyone seams to want us here. I think what we say now will help people in the future. I hope some or all are called from this blog and the comments and responses we give here. The glory is always God's, but do you ever feel people like me and you share in it by being in blogs like this one to shed some light on the truth?
Another thing. Feel free to print out/share what I have posted with anyone you wish. That goes for everyone here.
Peace all.
So how do you decide if someone's following Christ? Weinland's whole point is that you don't get to decide, all you are to do is follow him. And if he changes doctrine, you're supposed to do what he said. Such as use of second tithe and length of feast attendance.
WO, you are really deluded if you think anyone will be "called" as a result of your comments here. Your continual bob and weave and ducking of straightforward questions speaks volumes about the mindset of Weinland's followers.
You're continuing to duck the question for proof of Weinland's fulfilled prophecies.
And I'm still waiting for an answer as to how we determine which of Weinland's statements are prophecies and which are predictions.
"No president taking office was not a prophesy but a prediction based on the understanding of the first time line."
This whole "prediction" versus "prophesy" is malarkey. All it does is keep muddying the waters so you can't tell truth from fiction. The truth is right before you but you refuse to see it.
Most of us who are critical of Ron Weinland have very very very good irrefutable reasons to be. Ronald Weinland has absolutely no credibility as a prophet or a predictor. Every single thing that he has predicted or prophesied has failed.
Neither Observer or WO has been able to point to one prophecy that has come to pass. They have no basis to call Weinland a prophet other than Weinland making that claim.
I don't know anyone here.
If you think I'm deluded, you will think I'm deluded.
I believe you have reasons that absolutely convince you Weinland is false.
I did explain the thunders and I will hopefully do more with a blog I am creating. If you allow it Mike, I will post the link when I get more on it.
I made no guarantees on anyone being called or anything of that nature. I just thought of the possibility.
A prophesy is a preddiction one makes based on knolege and personal oppinion.
A prophesy is a fortelling revealed by God.
God reveals when a prophesy is a preddiction by showing it is incorrect.
Thunders did sound and are intensifying.
Other openings of seals came to pass.
It's not about things and what happens. It's what if anything doesn't end up happening when all is said and done that will show Ron's status.
I have covered all questions posted here.
Sorry about this one sentence per line thing. Nothing creepy intended. It's just that there were several questions on several topics.
"God reveals when a prophesy is a preddiction by showing it is incorrect."
That is just utter nonsense. The test of a prophet is very clear in the Bible. It is written there for our protection. Thankfully I have the ability to test Ron and he has failed that test by all objective measures.
A prophesy is a preddiction one makes based on knolege and personal oppinion.
A prophesy is a fortelling revealed by God.
God reveals when a prophesy is a preddiction by showing it is incorrect.
And how does God show that a prophesy is incorrect? Answer: You just have to wait to see whether it happens or not.
So a prophesy is a prophesy until it doesn't happen and then it was just a prediction. Any way to tell sooner than that?
Otherwise, by your definitions, Weinland has made lots of "preddictions" and no prophesies. God has revealed nothing at all to Weinland, it's all based on his personal opinion.
Thunders did sound and are intensifying.
We totally get that you believe this. Now prove it to the rest of us, with statistics from reliable sources. Compare the period before the fast with the period after. And no, a list of events doesn't do it. Cite actual statistics.
I have covered all questions posted here.
OK, now that you've covered these questions, how about answering them?
It's not about things and what happens. It's what if anything doesn't end up happening when all is said and done that will show Ron's status.
At last, a statement that shows some reasoning. That's the test I applied to determine Ron's status: False Prophet. And by his own definitions, an Insane Lying Lunatic.
Weinland Observer, it's a free Internet and you're entitled to set up your own blog. But I wouldn't expect you to link my blog, and don't expect me to link yours. When you get it set up, you may email me a link.
And if I want the link on my blog, I will be the one to post it here.
A prophesy is a preddiction one makes based on knolege and personal oppinion.
A prophesy is a fortelling revealed by God.
God reveals when a prophesy is a preddiction by showing it is incorrect.
Wow, that's some serious delusion right there. Are you not aware you have contradicted yourself? Prophesies are both from personal opinions/knowledge AND from God? Are you implying that God is made up in our minds? Surely not.
I'm glad you got my rocket science analogy. Here's another one. Let's say I am a lawyer. I walk up to you to offer some free legal advice. What am I being? A lawyer. Why? Because my job is go provide legal counsel.
Let's say I'm a prophet. I walk up to you and tell you something is going to happen in the future. What am I being? A prophet. Why? Because my job is to provide true predictions of the future.
I really can't see what the difference is there.
And once again: no one wants to print out what you have written for future study or to show to others. Stop trying to tout your faith above ours. You're in the wrong place for that.
Topic: Ron Weinland's governance tactics.
Observer,
Here's another aspect of Ron Weinland's governance tactics. Besides the tactics of consolidating power in order to be the A-number-one Top Dog in absolute authority (he won't tell YOU that) there's the tactic of governance over your MIND.
You said,
"No president taking office was not a prophesy but a prediction based on the understanding of the first time line".
A prediction and not a prophecy?
If you say so, but I'll bet that
RW didn't clarify exactly which one it was at the time he gave it.
Don't you get it?
RKPDRMR said...
"Don't you get it".
They wont.
I didn't.
SO GLAD I do now!
Another classic from the book (can't quote exactly as I do not have book in front of me) - something like "these things will not be revealed until it is time for them to happen".
Cool.
That way, just like aaaaallll the other 'prophets' out there that Ron bags, he can prophesy AFTER the event.
I might give it a go myself..I predict that Michael Jackson will die, but what causes his death is yet to be revealed. LOL!
Observer said...
RKPDRMR: No president taking office was not a prophesy but a prediction based on the understanding of the first time line. This one should be obvious and I for one never thought of it as a prophesy.
On a Sabbath sermon after that Radio Interview when it (no president 09) first 'came' to him during it', he said that God OFTEN 'GIVES' him things, and understandings during interviews - and this was 'no accident'.
He did indeed, say no president in 09 was from God, and therefore a PROPHECY from God about a FUTURE EVENT (or non event if you prefer), and you know it very well (but you have probably CHOSEN for forget that - as I myself did).
Also why did Ron say he was 'given' the FIRST timeline by Jesus from God? He never said it was HIS understanding - he ALWAYS said he was 'GIVEN' it. As I have proven (and you keep ignoring - I understand, I did too).
(Did not write above for O or WO - they don't have the eyes to see ;-).
No offence intended guys, I know you think we can't see. Again, no win.
J : you were not imagining the attitude - that is why they are here (I should know, unfortunately ;-(
WO - you will have fun with your own blog I'm sure :-) You obviously have many talents and interests.
Topic - Governance: Well Mike, the story just gets deeper and deeper. It is not surprising to me.
I'll never forget the day when Ron admitted he 'misunderstood' and got his prophecy wrong on the first timeline.
I truly never felt for one minute that Ron would go back on his word, and not claim himself a false prophet if nothing eventuated.
When he didn't, I just couldn't believe it.
It is truly SCAREY to think that you COULD be thinking of leaving the group, and therefore leaving GOD HIMSELF (as I did truly believe! Giving up my very salvation!).
So I stayed, in fear (calling it obedience) and CONVINCED MYSELF that Ron was who he said he was. I too, twisted meanings and downright ignored all the evidence.
Again, we are all seeing that here - and I can share all this being one who was in the same boat, and finally left.
Like anything in life, it is much easier to SEE in retrospect.
Painful, humbling (in the true sense of the word - being brought to nought) and so freeing at the same time.
That's the government I was under - a false one. Ouch. I just refused to admit it for so long, mainly due to TOTALLY beleiving Ron's truths. Again, on the day I left PKG - I believed ALL his truths (except that he was GFW).
Can you imaging leaving under these circumstance? Believing EVERYTHING except that! (Then of course, you have to question everything).
Leaving the safe haven of a government, of rules which you only need to follow - it was easy. You don't actually realise that you stop thinking for yourself - that is truly the SCARY thing. WO & O wouldn't see it yet, wasn't until weeks and weeks afterwards that I realised. Again, OUCH.
A true Godly government would help you grow and develop in Character, and develop a close and steadfast relationship with God (I know, I know O & WO, I THOUGHT that was happening too - to the greatest degree ever in my life - but it wasn't REAL, because Ron is FALSE).
Again, benefit of all above is so others can see what Ron's type of governance truly achieves.
Yes, governance is very important to Ron. Specially when he gets to govern people's thinking.
The statement to which Kirriy refers may be the one of March 10, 2007. It occurs within the first couple of minutes in the file I downloaded from the PKG website.
Just another memory in relation to governance and obedience.
I remember that when the first timeline failed, and those of us left were told that 'we still believe because God gave it. What other explanation can there be for all of us to remain of like mind - other than God giving it'.
We used to comment on this all the time. It was one of the things that kept me there - like, I guess I thought we all felt and thought the same because God was putting it in our minds. Again, what other explanation was there? All the evidence that Ron wasn't who he said he was, was there - right in front of us. Yet we still believed. We were all still of 'one accord'.
We believed, but we really could not say why (I mean yes, we would say the same things as WO & O) but we really could not say WHY we still believed Ron.
Only, well, we just DID.
I recall Ron saying a little while after the first timeline, something to the effect "I'm sticking around at it until the end - no matter what".
The reason I remember him saying this, is that I was very disturbed by it.
To me, it showed an attitude of 'well I don't care what happens, I KNOW I am GFW, and no matter what happens or doesn't happen - I am not going to give up'.
Pride.
Ron is right, it's our biggest enemy - and he should know, as it is his biggest flaw.
Just remembered that. :-)
Well, since Mike himself is not keeping to topic .....
J: OK, I'll go with your Lawyer analogy. A lawyer is a job description. But this lawyer can also be a spouse, parent, friend, Sunday school teacher, ...... When he say's "That was a delicious meal" is he giving legal advice ... no but he is still a lawyer.
Ron is a prophet (job description). He is also a husband, father, friend, pastor ..... When he looks outside and sees some clouds and says, " It's going to rain", is it a prophesy or perhaps a prediction or maybe a random comment. If it doesn't rain is he a false prophet.
King David was a prophet, king, father, brother, husband ..... Was every word out of his mouth a prophesy? I think you get my point. (it isn't rocket science and even a rocket scientist "wears many hats")
Kirilly: Listen to the interview again. It was not the comment about the new president that Ron was referring to when he said that God "gave him things/understanding during interviews.
Well said Observer.
Okay, I still feel I answered all questions. However I did mess up with the prophesy part of what I was writing.
A prophesy is a fortelling given by God.
A prediction is made by knollege one has.
A prophesy comes from God while a preddiction is corrected by God, not by it not coming to pass but by more being given on why it is not correct. JUly 16 didn't reveal the first timeline to be incorrect. The 50th truth did it earlier.
Peace.
Dillusion explained perhaps, J?
Kirrily, i read your posts and I o understand what you think. I thought the same way for a few months. I already have a blog full of links. I'm just creating a special Ron Weinland blog as I will need more than one post on him. Do you have a blog? I know you can't post it here, but do you have one? I'm sure if you do it's very interesting and something I'd enjoy reading.
So, going along with your bifurcation of prophecy, which I think is totally bogus, you still haven't answered the question:
What prophecies has Ron Weinland made that have come true? Name one. That's all we are asking.
Also, is the death of COG ministers a prophecy or a prediction? Since Ron claims that God corrected him on the first timeline, was that a prediction and not a prophecy? How do you know that his latest timeline isn't just a prediction as well?
Do you consider anything that Ron says a prophecy or do you just take what he says as a guessing?
Ron's form of top down governance means he is accountable to no one -Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - He is in it for the paycheck and he is a false prophet - His own words confirm this:
One example - From his last sermon of 2007 titled "Stay the Course, Part 1":
"I wanna speak very plainly and try to speak openly about some of these things...
You know, one of the things as well, what if Ron Weinland, what he says doesn't come to pass in April, what if these things don't happen in 2008. I think about, you know, what have I said in interviews? There's really a simple answer. False prophet. You know, I get tons of email, I get email every day from people saying, "Well I guess in 2009," a lot of sarcasm comes out, "I guess you're gonna be saying this or saying that or trying to explain to people", No, I'm done.
Just to be real candid with you so people know and people out there listening who don't believe this at all, they're listening because they have a different intent, because they know someone else is listening with a different intent then them, again, that's the only answer, that's why I answer like I do during the interviews. There is only one answer! You know, the world is not like that! You know, when people are not doing what is right and they claim certain things or say certain things about what is given to them, and it doesn't come to pass, then they have to madly change everything, and do something else! You know, and say, "Well, God showed me this" and "I just didn't understand this, so God is revealed this to me now" and blah, blah, blah, blah, blaah, blaah, blaaaah. Because when you come down to it, it's about the paycheck. It's about what are they going to do from here on out. You know?
Well the bottom line again is here, be bold, be candid here, and say, Well, if it doesn't happen, there's only one answer. He's a false prophet. Nothing he can say can change that."
“Ron wanted the money to be used for printing and sending out booklets to the scattered Church. Again, someone tell me what is wrong with this and find a better possible alternative to do God's work!”
I rather think this was fine as a “opinion” and a “suggestion” to the church, but the church turned it down in favor of keeping the money and using it for other activities. That was its decision and the “Board” was the authority that hired Ron and paid Ron and had authority over Ron. Am I typing to fast? Is this hard to understand?
A better possible alternative? Like spreading the word of God as portrayed by the bible and not Rons personal revelations? Like feeding the poor and homeless? Like forming ministries to help children? Like Clothing ones fellow man? Like Feeding the starving? Like contributing to medical ministry to far away lands? Like printing bible(s) and actually paying transport and distribution to lands that lack in the knowledge of the Bibles? Like sending missions to ones own streets or to far away lands to spread the gospel? Like saving money to a building fund to build a church temple for the people to use? Uh… like those things?
“A prophesy is a fortelling revealed by God.
God reveals when a prophesy is a preddiction by showing it is incorrect”
Oh my Lord… Whew…
This is such abortive circular logic that I’ll just leave that dog alone…
Others have kicked this dog already.
Man, what a mind-set.
:-(
"A prophesy is a fortelling given by God. A prediction is made by knollege one has. A prophesy comes from God while a preddiction is corrected by God, not by it not coming to pass but by more being given on why it is not correct. JUly 16 didn't reveal the first timeline to be incorrect."
So every time I state "God is going to wipe Las Vegas off the map very soon" I am making a Prophecy until it does not happen very soon and it is then revealed as a "prediction"?
So almost everything is a Prophecy until those items found "wrong" are downgraded to a "predictions"?
Whew... that's a... hmmm... well, that is a rather different way of thinking about things I must say.
So the obvious question comes up, logically: "If this is so then is there ever such a thing as a False Prophet?" By your reasoning there is not, can not be, there are only people with wrong predictions. Ergo no prophecy is ever wrong even if one calles there prediction a "prophecy" because if it turns out wrong it becomes a "prediction" and is ok.
Wow, that's a truely bewildering mind-set.
I'm predicting that I'll eat peperoni pizza for lunch today. I've called the delivery guy.
I'm waiting. When he gets here, it will be time to fulfill prophecy.
: D
Dill Weed
Dill Weed, you have it in the correct order.
Ron, on the other hand, would prophesy that he was going to eat pizza, then if the delivery guy gets lost restate that it was a prediction.
Addressing an earlier statement by Observer, if the lawyer gives advice about a legal matter, then that's legal advice whether or not you've retained him to represent you. If he gives advice on how to clean a stain out of a carpet, that's not legal advice.
When Ron writes a book or goes on a radio show and states that he is a prophet of the God of Abraham, and then makes a statement about a prophetic event, such as no new president in 2009, that's a prophesy. Plain and simple.
It turns out that some one order chicken parmesean and didn't want it. If there's anything I like better than pepperoni pizza, its chicken parmesean. Looks like that was a failed prediction.
: O
Dill Weed
Everyone is getting wthis prophesy thing wrong here. I do not believe that a prophesy can simply be called a preddiction if it is wrong. If it is "given by God" and comes not to pass it is false. God would not allow a prophesy to not come to pass before explaining and correcting it. This is why it was given before July 16.
Whisper, I believe once again that a board doesn't govern the true church. As for them turning the request to have many to publish the books down, that shows that they didn't care about the scattered Church. As for missionaries etc, Ron is taking the truth to the world right now. There is a lot more truth in what Ron says than in those ministries. Apparently they actually pay the poor to convert and have been kicked out by various governments.
Okay. The USA has a lot of people and a lot of bibles. It has a large number of ministries and cults, which mostly claim biblical teaching. To what avail? To what physical avail? High divorce rates, broken families, theft, drugs, no real sincere respect between most people, support for opressive regimes, military action (thou shall not kill) out the window let alone the aspect of hating being equal to it, liing, the use of interest, etc. Your nation can't even keep the physical aspects of these laws my friends in the USA. Most nations keep them not. It is for those who strive to keep certain physical laws of God who I am particularly hopeful for although I know God will call them from all across the board. In saying this I come down to this: Countries do not need your versions of truth. Their view is just as good as your's if not better. The money needed to be used to help those who were in the truth and taken away. In the early 2001 sermons I could sence the deep concern Ron had over spreading his message to all the scattered brethren. To any of you in that category you will realize someday what has been done to assist you. Ron talks about the remnant so often and reflects on those days when all in God's church were truly one before the seventies issues and the Falling Away. I believe you are in the prayers of many in the cog-pkg. I can hope you are called but I can not have the same knolege as Ron and others who knew you personally at a time when the love of God hadn't waxed cold.
I pray for all here.
Later.
If you want to insult me here, I'll live with it. I won't take it personally. How could I anyway. You don't know me and I don't know you. If you did you might disagree with me but wouldn't insult me if you had the slightest bit of integrity.
Mike: I agree that the book is prophesy. The things spoken of will take place. However, everything that comes out of Ron's mouth during a sermon or interview or conversation, or whatever IS NOT PROPHESY. (I'm not yelling, just emphasizing : ) ... also it is not Ron that has used the term PREDICTION .... that would have been me.
Many people ask for specific proof of the thunders intensifying, seals being opened, first trumpet blown, etc, etc. Let me answer clearly: THERE IS NO SIGN OR PROOF that can be given as DEFINITE proof of any of the above and Ron freely admits this ( It is an adulterous generation that looks for a sign) THE PROOF WILL COME but most will still not believe. For now it is a matter of faith, not faith in Ron but faith in almighty God Who only can give a person eyes to see and then only if they are willing to see. To him who has ears to hear let him hear ...
WO,
Don't take anything I say personally, I'm just trying to be funny.
Ron said he doesn't believe he'll get his Witness powers until after the 5th Trumpet.
But Revelation says: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
There is a clear order there. The giving of power comes at the beginning of the 1260 day ministry, at least that's how God puts it.
What if Ron had a heart attack? Did you hear him mention possibly ending up in a wheel chair? What if one of them died of some illness or became incapacitated unable to carry on? Would that prove they were false prophets?
Recommendation for future answers. Take peoples points one at a time.
1. Ron says he has no powers and that he believes he won't get them until after the 5th Trumpet AND the bible stating God would empower His Witness and then they would begin their ministry.
2. What if Ron or Laura died or became incapacitated and could not carry on?
Dill Weed
Dill Weed: Ron did not say he didn't have powers now only that they will predominantly be used after the 5th trumpet and only as God directs. He and Laura will not die until the appointed time. They are protected from death until then.
Observor, I will never to listen to the interviews again, nor will I listen to Rons babbling sermons. Again, you misread what I wrote - it was in a SERMON (a while after one of the numerous interviews stating no president) that he stated God 'Gave it to him' about no president, and that it was 'no accident'.
WO: I do have a blog, but I don't use it and I can't remember how to get back in to delete it, so it's just sitting there doing nothing. I have no intention on starting one.
Debbie - awesome job on the re-cap there, I remember that one well. I truly believed that he would declare himself a false prophet, and us followers would be 'set free'. Boy, was I scared when he didn't as I have mentioned here.
Again all, the mindset is truly amazing isn't it.
Once I decided to leave (Jan 09), I still do not feel entirely free of all this.
Have a great day/night all.
Pizza....mmmmmmmmm :-)
Observer said: "Mike: I agree that the book is prophesy. The things spoken of will take place."
Ron's books said: "By the fall of 2008, the United States will have collapsed as a
world power, or it will have begun its collapse and no longer
exist as an independent nation within six months after that time."
The U.S. still exists as an independent nation. This prophecy failed. Therefore Ron is a false prophet. See how easy that is?
WO:
Ok, so we are talking about "belief" in who control and has power in a church? Ah... see I was going down the "what physically is" path and you were on the "believe" path.
If we are discussing "beleif" then your right, the board was wrong and America is all messed up and there is evil throughout the world and the military is full of murderers, Ron is a Prophety, Ron & Laura are witness's and little bitty COG-PKG is the true church, etc...
I may be wrong here but I really think that most people here are discussing the physical words spoken by Ron, the physical Bible(s), and the historic track record of what has happened to date and not, for the most part, what they personally "believe" as a persons "belief" while good for them does not proove anything in seeking the truth whether Ron is a prophet or witness or good biblical pastor or leads God "True Church" etc...
I must admit I was expecting more physical miracles in the tribulations, more physical destruction etc... like Rons books fortold. But it's not turning out, go figure?
Why is that? Lack of faith or just simply a good pair of eye balls?
Whisper, for the most part I always knew the world in general was in error. However I did believe people could change it. Now I see only God can and will change things.
I believe Ron because the truth was given and proved to me to be true.
These discussions will get much more interesting after Oct. 10.
Dill, I had some pizza too today interestingly enough.
Observer,
1. Ron did not say he didn't have powers now.
Yes, he did. See quote below.
2. ...only that they will predominantly be used after the 5th trumpet
No.
Ron said, "I NOW believe I won't receive my powers UNTIL AFTER the 5th turmpet." That was all he said.
[Notice, he did't say I'll get more power(s) then.]
AND he just dropped that sentence into the middle of a sermon and DID NOT ELABORATE. Ron hasn't received ANY Witness powers.
3. and only as God directs.
Also, no
BECAUSE... they have the power to strike the earth with every plague, AS OFTEN AS THEY DESIRE. (When and how they use Witness powers is up to them.)
3. He and Laura will not die until the appointed time. They are protected from death until then.
He said he believes he has God's protection. AND.. God is NOT taking care of their health. They are not protected from injury or sickness.
Dill Weed
Dill Weed; 1. Are we to take your word that Ron said that he wasn't getting power until later or can you specify where you heard him say it so we can hear it for ourselves? I listen to every sermon, usually several times, and I heard it differently as I've already stated. 2. Since as followers of God we wish to do as He desires, the witnesses will also wish to use their power according to God's will and plan, as Moses did.
3. Ron KNOWS that he has been given the promise of protection from death. Health insurance, on the other hand, has not been specified one way or another.
In the sermon of June 13, Ron says something along those lines at about 1:39 minutes (version with announcements, probably around 1:30 if the announcements have been clipped.
But it's not exactly what Dill Weed said. Maybe he said it at a different time? Don't recall.
This is after a long-winded explanation as to why Ron hasn't already struck me dead -- oh wait, he's already declared a death curse on me.
I missed a lot of good stuff today...Sorry to say Dill Weed, but the comments here are funnier than anything you write in your blog, hehe. I'm skimming through this right now, shaking my head at the mindset of Observer and Weinland Observer. They'd might as well be the same person, since they both have the same circular logic going. Well, one can spell.
One bit makes me really laugh:
"I agree that the book is prophesy. The things spoken of will take place. However, everything that comes out of Ron's mouth during a sermon or interview or conversation, or whatever IS NOT PROPHESY."
I'm sorry, but that is HILARIOUS.
So if a "prophet" writes about future events, then it is a prophecy, but if he speaks about future events, then it is not? Hahahaha.
You know, all the prophets in the Bible SPOKE their prophecies. They didn't make books and sell them on Amazon. So by your own admission, Moses, Jonah, Malachi, Zechariah et al, oh and JESUS CHRIST himself, were NOT prophets? After all, they spoke their prophecies, which were later written down. Jesus didn't write anything down. He left that to his disciples. Christ spoke prophecies in sermons and conversations, so according to you Observer, nothing he said was a prophecy. How very sad of you to have this mindset. You make sad excuses for Weinland at every turn. I suppose too that the Great Flood never happened since I doubt Noah had time to write books and distribute them to the sinners of the world before it was too late.
Or maybe they they were retroactively made prophets later when their prophecies were written down. Oh hey, you know what? Last Monday, I told myself "I am having a sandwich for lunch." And you know what, I had that sandwich. My prediction came true. Oh wait, I just wrote it down on this blog. It must have been prophecy! I should start a church. "The Church of J: Preparing for the Kingdom of the Spinsters."
At 1:30:30
"Everyting happens according to God's will... It's never a matter of trying to prove something." People just can't grasp it.
“That's why I understand that most things concerning the Two Witnesses won’t begin to happen until after the 5th Trumpet. The primary things that people want to see, in the sense of proof, won’t begin to happen until after the 5th Trumpet.”
I paraphrased him (sorry about placing that in quotes.)
He says nothing about having recieved any powers and delays recieving them when God said power would be given BEFORE their ministry began. He did refer to Jesus saying God quickened him maybe he expects to be quickened. He also said that there has to be some purpose... apparently there hasn't been any purpose yet.
Dill Weed
He says nothing about having recieved any powers and delays recieving them when God said power would be given BEFORE their ministry began.
Then there's only one possible choice: Weinland was wrong, or God was wrong. Whom do you choose?
Whoops, meant to italicize the first paragraph above, as it was a quote from Dill Weed. Sorry about the anon post too...
To be fair, my paraphrase was incorrect.
He didn't say he had not received any powers. (We sure haven't seen evidence of any.)
But he pretty much said any visible evidence wouldn't occur until after the 5th Trumpet.
Nothing convincing has happened anyway.
Dill Weed
Rev. 11:66 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
If you listen to Weinland's blather leading up to what Dill Weed quoted, Ron says that it's God's will that he wait.
Hmmm. So why didn't he wait before issuing the death curse against me?
J, I had a chuckle at your last comment.
I too want those kinds of preddictions to come to pass.
Everyone on this earth with some effort could make up a few beliefs, put them together, and start a religion with a following of some sort. Did you hear a quote by El Ron Hubbard stating this? He's the Scientology founder. Scientology lacks truth and I could have told you it was false and explained why when I was in Kindergarten. Yet, many believe it and its leaders are rich because of it.
J, I can spell. I got 100% on every spelling test I ever had from grade 3 to 8 with the exception of getting one word wrong on three tests.
Also, Observer and I both have a unique personality. You just can't see it because we talk about one topic here, Ron. If you, Observer, and I were to sit down and hang out for a while you would see how we would all be different. Hey I just had a picture of that in my head and it looked interesting. I can think of a few it would be interesting meeting. As top 5 here I'd probably have most in common with Observer, Kirrily, Dill, J, and Mike. Anyone have any comments on this list?
Not everyone in God's church or anyone anywhere is like another person. Ron himself states how awesome it is that all in God's church have different personalities but are united in spirit and truth. God intends this for all creation and thus allowed man to have free will. Only the Bible explains this and many other truths!
Speaking of talking etc, Mike you should consider having one of those chatroom forums that ironwolf had during sermons once or twice. That would be sweet: talking to everyone here in realtime. Conversation would quickly get interesting for sure.
About my unique self J and others: I enjoy reading, listening to music, debate, walking, making friends, family, school, the internet, watching hockey and soccer, listening to music, walking and running, and playing guitar.
I hope everyone here is enjoying summer and that you all have some good plans other than being on this blog. I know I do.
Here's a suggestion. Go watch Harry Potter And The Half Blood Prince.
Sorry Mike for possibly going off topic. I just wanted to demonstrate that I have a life although I maybe already did in the past. I also wanted to demonstrate that I have a unique personality as is contrary to J's claims that there is no difference between one person here and another. We are all unique. You learn that in elementary school and you can hear it from Barny the purple dinosaur before even you start school.
"Scientology lacks truth and I could have told you it was false and explained why when I was in Kindergarten. Yet, many believe it and its leaders are rich because of it."
I can easily substitute Weinland for Scientology.
Still waiting for Observer or WO to offer up some of the prophecies of Weinland. I think that is going to back them into a corner where there's no escape and they know it.
J: Obviously you missed the flow of conversation. I did not say that nothing that came out of Ron's mouth was prophesy: I said that not everything he said was prophesy. BIG DIFFERENCE! It has nothing to do with written/spoken.
As for being just like WO. Nice compliment but, at least in our choice of movies, we are waaaay different. I can't think of many things I would want to do less than watch a Harry Potter movie. No offense WO. : )
Dill Weed: Thanks for kind of admitting that you had miss-quoted Ron. Just because powers are given doesn't mean they must be used immediately or in a visible way. ie Who is to say how much power has already been used in protecting Ron and Laura.
Mike: You have already (kind of) admitted that Ron did not specifically name you in the "death curse" so don't you think it's time to give that one a rest. How many times can you repeat the same things over and over again without someone screaming ENOUGH. Tell us something new!
Hey, I'll say it as often as I want. As far as him not naming me specifically, so what? He didn't name anybody. Does that mean that his curse doesn't apply to anyone?
If his curse doesn't apply to me, then to whom else could it possibly apply?
"I did not say that nothing that came out of Ron's mouth was prophesy"
You haven't identified anything from his mouth that you consider a prophecy. Does a prophet not prophecy?
Two prophesies I can think of.
1. Ron stated that the unemployment rate decrease would increase for May from that of April. This happened. Decrease by 0.4% grew to that of 0.5%. I don't know if this was in the announcements I believe it was.
2. Ron stated somewhere at the end of the book paraphrasing, that two years after the book's publishing the world would be plunged in to the most destructive times, or something similar, again paraphrasing.
The book was released on Nov 14, 2006.
The seventh seal opened on Nov 14 2008.
This is being plunged in to those times.
The economic chrisis is another way in which this has happened, and Ron confirmed this in one of his sermons.
These are economic prophesies, but that's the thunder that is taking presidence over the rest. The next one, after thunder four, is death.
So much for the dark corner Mark. Do you honestly think Observer and I are going to both believe and be ignorant?
WO: As far as the unemployment statistics, I'd like to have a reference to the quote you mentioned. (Date and time location). I have copies of the sermons with announcements and can listen for myself. I would point out that I've provided references for other of Ron's statements. Can you do the same?
Let's say that Ron made a direct statement that unemployment would rise (which I don't recall). All we have here is a prediction which happened to come true, so we call it a prophesy. As compared to all the predictions which did not come true and therefore are not prophesies.
Unemployment statistics either go up or go down every month. Very weak compared to all the failed "preddictions" that have been pointed out. (OK, that may be a bit unfair -- I note that your spelling is improving.)
Regarding the November 14th thing. Why is that important? We're talking about two events that happened to come about 2 years apart on the ungodly Roman calendar set up by a pope.
The only relation Nov 14th has to a prophesy is an unfulfilled one. The book stated it would be published in the summer of 2006. Nov 14th is after summer.
Going to need something a lot better than this to get out of the corner.
WO/Observer,
Yeah, calling you the same was unfair. Was it just coincidence that you both chose "Observer"? And WO, as Mike mentioned, get "preddiction" right, and your spelling will be A-OK.
WO, I am surprised that you would suggest Harry Potter. While I am a fan of the books and movies, many in COG consider it demonic. Heck, I know people who steer clear from Lord of the Rings too. PKG is what I'd consider an "extremist" COG. If you asked around in PKG, I doubt many followers would be open to Potter.
Observer and Weinland Observer, I have a question for you both. It may have been asked before, I dunno. But here it is:
How long will it be before you lose faith in Ronald Weinland's role as a prophet? You must at least agree in SOME way that things are not happening as prophesied. (No deaths in the other COGs, for example) We say nothing has happened, you say some things have either happened or have been changed via the 50th truth. But things cannot continue as is. Timeline 2 is in great jeopardy. Are current world events leading to a 2012 return of Jesus Christ? I highly doubt it. What say you two? What would need to happen for your faiths to be damaged? Would you give him until 2010 or so and wonder why no trumpets are being sounded, or will you wait until the bitter end of 2012?
5 AM
Anonymous said...
Mike, the unemployment rate increase prophesy was given on May 9 somewhere in the announcements. You yourself posted something about it in your weekly sermon analysis. No offence, but I think Weinland Watch produced summaries that were much more detailed. In any case, I can't give the minute/second as I don't have the sermon with the announcements since I don't archive his sermons. However I remember it being in the announcements section. That was a prophesy. He didn't say "I believe it will go down or anything like that." He stated it as an event that would indeed occur. Note that at this time I still didn't fully believe Ron but with what I was learning about the fast etc after managing to listen and open my mind more and seeing the unemployment prophesy come to pass I once again believed Ron.
I stand by the prophesies I posted. Clearly 'Gregorian ears are valid in this day and age for a lot of things so why should Ron not use them in prophesy?
J, I will only stop believing Ron if/when he says something God gave him that makes no sence. That is all. If I make an error in disearning there, I repent.
I'm a Harry Potter fan and I do not believe the book teaches anything wrong. Neither does Lord Of The Rings. What I have kept away from is music that is meaningless and/or has bad messages. There are bands out there that I listen to and that have songs with good messages. Simple Plan, Nickelback are a couple. It's not about the Church telling you exactly what not to do. Ron stated that those growing in God's truth and knollege and keeping God's commandments will continue to learn what to do. It's all about the weightier matters of the law: judgement, mercy, and faith.
As far as right-left spectrum, I believe UCG is extreme left with LCG right behind it but maybe more to the right as wasn't it an LCG sermon that said husbands could beat up their wives. In the center would be Cog-pkg, moderation being key as the scripture explains. Then there's PCG and RCG. Apparently PCG banned members from facebook among other things. Also their publications are political contrary to their claims as are RCG's. UCG isn't exactly non-political either and I have seen articles that suggest they tend to back certain US foreign policies and certain countries in wars over others.
Observer, I hope I am using God's judgement correctly in judging matters of entertainment. With God's judgement does it sound like I'm doing what's right?
WO: While I don't take the time to transcribe what Ron said to level of detail that WeinlandWatch did, I do save his sermons.
I have uploaded the version of the May 9 sermon with announcements. The statement to which WO refers starts at about 3 minutes 45 seconds in that file.
Observer is trying to make a point that Weinland didn't curse me because he didn't name me specifically. That's true, since he didn't name anyone at all. He DID define a profile to whom the death curse applied which fits me perfectly. If you argue that it doesn't apply to me then it applies to no one. If so, why was Ron blathering?
The statement in this case is much, much less specific. Ron's simply stating that companies are cutting back while the stock market is rising. Not even close to the level of "the unemployment statistics will be higher next month".
IMO, this doesn't even rise to the level of a "prediction". (WO, I note that your spelling and grammar has improved. Showing you are capable, and I appreciate it. Paragraph breaks help a lot. I appreciate that spelling and grammar take lower priority in a chat room situation, but I think that blogging requires a bit higher standard.)
In any case, the quote is available for anyone to listen to, with whatever ears-to-hear that they have. Make up your own mind after listening to it, if you haven't already.
You characterize the various CoGs as "right" or "left". I would characterize them as "less abusive" or "more abusive". In the abuse spectrum, I would rank them as:
"less abusive"
Big Sandy CoG
Belleville (Ill) CoG
UCG
LCG
Philadelpha CoG
PKG
Restored CoG
"more abusive"
with the two "less abusive" around the same and the three "more abusive" around the same.
The way I understood the quote was that Ron had talked about unemployment going up to 8.9% and that there would be a big fall next time around. Next time around may have meant the next global disturbance in economy, but I also took it to mean next time when unemployment rate is stated. This happened as the US had an unemployment rate go down from 8.5% which is an increase of 0.4 to going down from 8.9% to 9.4% which is an increase by 0.5% to 8.9%.
WO: Just to be clear, are you referring to your earlier recollections of what Ron said? Or did you download from my link and listen to it again?
Mike, I re-listened to the May 9 section.sermon
J : Again, you have missed some of the flow of the conversation so I will explain my "name." WO and I are not twins. : ) WO chose his name because he is a Weinland observer. I chose my name because I am an observer of Don't Drink the Flavor Aid. Since this is a very long name and because I didn't want to immediately say what I was observing, I chose Observer.
Mike: I remember Ron referring to e-mails that people sent him in which horrible things were said and threats were made on his life. If you want to own up to being responsible for writing any of those e-mails then perhaps I can accept that you have received a death curse. Otherwise, I think you should stop using it as a proof that Ron is a false prophet even though it seems to be a favorite "proof" of yours.
WO: Some on this site have said that Harry Potter movies are taboo in the Church. I have never heard anything said about them one way or another but, as you said, Ron gives much leeway in the area of choices such as this and it is God that we must please, not man. In my own case, long before I knew anything about PKG (actually before it existed with this name) I decided that I would live my life to please God no matter what others thought or no matter the consequences. There was much that led up to this decision but no room here to get into it) My desire was to have purity of thought and mind and a heart that followed after God wholly. I was very restrictive on myself, taking seriously the verse that says: whatsoever things are pure, lovely, of a good report ... think on these things. For example: I have watched very few movies and little TV over the years. : ) I did not impose these restriction on others or judge them accordingly. This was simply a choice that I made and it was between me and God. I believe that He has blessed me incredibly over the years and even if I was too hard on myself, and I don't think I was, God looks at and judges the heart. So WO, I personally would not watch a Harry Potter movie because of the witchcraft element. God compares rebellion to witchcraft and we know what he thinks of rebellion. But, this is definitely an area that you would need to decide in your own personal relationship with God. Ron has spoken much on judgment in the last three sermons and this fits. You may do something that is OK for you that I can't do and I may do something that you can't do and we must not judge another man's servant. It is God that makes us stand.
Prophecy, what an odd word...
No offense to the minutia of small prophecy of exactly how many points the US government will move the “unemployment” percentage this month or that but I was a-looking at the larger more obvious prophecies of old Ron that seem so ridiculous now and I would appreciate a explanation from those more informed or intelligent than mere I on the status of such “Prophecy”, in detail of course. To wit:
1) There will be no new president sworn into office, in the United States of America, in 2009…
2) Gerald Flurry will DIE during the sounding of the 5th Thunder…
3) The effects of the 1st trumpet will happen SOON after its sounding where 1/3 of the grass and trees will burn/die/sicken & die/evaporate/disintegrate etc… and this is “exactly what this means”.
Why is President Obama in office when the White House should be vacant and disused?
Why is Gerald Flurry still breathing when he should be but a memory now?
Why has the United States of America not had a catastrophe of loosing 1/3 of it’s grass and trees “exactly” like the Bible states (Ron of course added the part about the USA & Canada being a prophet and all)?
These are prophecies. They where prophetic in accordance with the Bible by Ron in his job title as a “Prophet”. These where not predictions. I can not “predict” in my profession, I must give my opinion as a professional. Of course I can be wrong, but Ron can not as he gets his words from God (being a prophet and all…) and God is always right. So then what is the explanation of the 3 above?
o,
wouldn't that also apply to one mans interpretation of the bible vs. RW's translation?
If this is truly what a man believes God is showing him through scripture, God would know that about his heart.
Whisper: 1. Prediction based on available (at the time) information.
2 and 3 are prophesies yet to be fulfilled completely.
#2 This part of the 5th thunder has not happened and, from my understanding, is withheld until the 5th trumpet.
#3 Spiritual fulfillment ongoing with the "death of the dollar" The physical fulfillment will take place over the time of the other trumpets ( as the consequences of the opening of the first seal continued on through the opening of the other seals).
As with all prophesy, it is not totally understood by the prophet at the time of writing. I'm sure that, for example, John had little understanding of the Book of Revelation as he wrote it. Time makes everything clear but even then most will reject the Truth because of the hardness of man's hearts.
1. "Ron stated that the unemployment rate decrease would increase for May from that of April."
I could have made that prediction given the recession that we were in. Obama said unemployment rates could reach double digits. That may happen. Is Obama a prophet too? I don't think so. Unemployment goes up and down. There's nothing novel or prophetic about his statements. Likewise, if it didn't happen, would you have just called it a prediction?
2. "that two years after the book's publishing the world would be plunged in to the most destructive times, or something similar, again paraphrasing.
The book was released on Nov 14, 2006.
The seventh seal opened on Nov 14 2008.
This is being plunged in to those times."
So, again, that is your opinion, but there is no proof of that. Recession? Yes. But we are far from the turmoil created from similar downturns. Gas prices are much better compared to last year, unemployment rates are nowhere near the great depression and aren't even at the level from 1982.
Are you aware that there are quite a number of protestant churches outside of the COG that hold to similar positions about European domination and the fall of the U.S.? Weinland's interpretation of Revelation is not unique. His shouting that it would happen in 2008 IS unique, and that has failed.
O,
"If you want to own up to being responsible for writing any of those e-mails..."
This is a completely unsupportable accusation. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support this, in tone or in word, anywhere on this blog, NONE AT ALL.
Mike rigorously moderates his comments. IN fact, any derogatory language he has used describing Weinland HAS COME FROM WEINLAND HIMSELF BY WAY OF APPLYING A LABEL TO HIMSELF FOR PROPHETIC PREDICTIONS NOT COMING TO PASS, hense, insane lying false prophet.
I admitted my error.
Admit yours.
You need to immediately apologize.
Fair is fair.
Be fair.
Dill Weed
"Spiritual fulfillment ongoing with the "death of the dollar" "
I love the term "spiritual fulfillment". That is the most nonsensical way to describe something that hasn't happened. Why even use that term? Why not say it hasn't happened yet?
Everything post June 2008 with Ron is "spiritual" or "beginning to happen" or "being plunged into". All these terms mean the same thing: It hasn't happened.
Observer, you need to re-listen to the Dec 20 sermon in which Ron reimposed the death curse on me. About 1 hour and 20 minutes into the version with announcements, probably earlier in the version currently on the PKG web site.
The death curse was not issued in the context of emailed death threats. He did lead up to the curse by mentioning emails that pointed out that his death curse issued April of last year was worthless (just like this one).
The only email I've sent him is copied on my blog. If you can find a death threat in that, point it out. I've done the opposite of threatening him physically, by holding back on publishing his address (which I knew back in April of last year) and seeing that it was redacted by another blogger who published court documents which included his address.
Otherwise, don't muddy the waters with death threats on Ron. Let's talk about his death curse on me. Listen to his Dec 20 death curse yourself, then then explain why it doesn't apply to me and to whom it does apply. Since I have mocked him, critcized him, and done even more.
WO: I'm still not getting any predictions or prophesies from the May 9 sermon.
Maybe you could transcribe it, or someone else will listen to it and point out what I'm missing.
Mike, the prophesy I already quoted so I don't see the point in writing out a whole sermon unless someone didn't have the ears to hear, physically speaking.
To some other comments. As far as being plunged in to Tribulation that is something that I still believe has happened. Observer explained the rest.
Then there's the other prophecy:
"Buy things you want now because you won't have to pay it off later since the credit card companies will be defunct."
Now, he didn't use those exact words, but that's what he meant. WHETHER OR NOT THIS CAN BE EXPLAINED AWAY AS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE FIRST TIMELINE, he still advocated STEALING. Taking something without the intention of paying for it is STEALING. I don't care if you can explain away poor reasoning on his part, the bottom line is that he encouraged sin.
Dill Weed (and Mike): Do you purposely misinterpret what I write? It is VERY obvious from what I said to Mike that: 1. I DO NOT think he sent threatening e-mails to Ron 2. It is those who did send them that Ron was referring to and 3. Unless number 1 is an incorrect assumption on my part (and only Mike could correct that) or I will stand by my opinion that Mike has not been cursed and therefore should not use it as proof of Ron being a false prophet. I don't think it is me that owes an apology but I don't expect one either. If you misunderstood what I was saying that happens. I hope I cleared things up.
Please read what I say carefully .... I am not in the habit of mocking or insulting anyone so if it seems like I am doing that, please consider me innocent until proven guilty and I will do the same for you.
I'm pretty sure Weinland has made veiled references to this blog in his sermons, so he knows of Mike and the mocking. Mike commented on Weinland using some minor false information to mock an entire post as false. (That was this blog, right?) Why are you so positive that Weinland wouldn't include him in the death curse? Because he's still alive? Can the dead mockers only be anonymous people out there where the death reports would never come back to us? That way, whether or not it happens or not, you can all convince yourselves that it did. All Weinland would have to say is that the mocking has stopped. You'd have to take him at his word.
Besides, you're a good little PKG member, you're supposed to want this death curse to follow through. Follow the leader. Take that sip that Weinland offers you or you'll get disfellowshipped.
J and others: If you want to see Mike cursed ... fine take it on. But you CANNOT use it as proof. Surely you can see that. Mike WAS NOT mentioned by name and if he is one of the people Ron meant then it will come to pass in it's time. I will have NO pleasure in it, nor will Ron, nor will God if that is the case. Surely you want irrefutable evidence on this site so stick to your high standards and use strong proofs to prove your position.
O,
I apologize.
Its just that I took, that "If you want to own up to those emails..." as indicating that you believed he sent them. I believe that is a reasonable interpretation from the context and the language.
In any case, I apologize.
It is clear to me that time will be the ultimate arbiter of truth. Let it be.
All the best to you, WO and O.
Dill Weed
Which people were named as mockers by Weinland, for whom the death curse would apply?
Regarding Ron Weinland's governance methods on the MIND.
Weinland Observer and Observer,
One of you said in a previous post, that if something doesn't come to pass, it was just a prediction.
But if it does come to pass, then THAT is a prophecy.
I'm trying to understand your thinking.
So my question is this: What you
are saying, then, is that you don't know whether it's a prediction or a prophesy until AFTER the fact. Right?
Second question: Could you give an example of what you would consider to be a failed prophecy. Something that would make you doubt Ron Weinland's claims of revelation from God.
What I mean is, make up an example.
Like; if Ron said such and such would come to pass, and WHEN it would come to pass.
But then it didn't, within the given time frame.
Give us your example, of a failure that would make you disbelieve Ron.
A few points.
(1) The criteria for Weinland's death curse had nothing to do with whether a death threat was made. The criteria was whether or not the offender criticized or mocked this false prophet. The mention of the death threat emails was at another time, IIRC a later sermon. I provided a sermon file and a timestamp so anyone can listen to it and see what was really said. No one has done the same about the death threat emails.
And what Observer said was amibiguous enough that while he can deny it, it could be interpreted as an accusation. No, Dill Weed and I are not looking for an insult in everything Observer says. Whatever, we'll drop that aspect.
I have provided clear proof that Weinland issued a death curse against me:
(1) A sermon file with his statement that mockers and critics will die speedily.
(2) This blog on which I have mocked and criticized him.
No names required. In fact he did not name anyone. Observer has used this to try to duck the prophesy, but has never addressed my challenge to identify to whom the curse does apply.
Yes, Ron's death curse against me will eventually become true. Because I will die as will everyone else (including those who think they're part of the 144,000 -- probably you too, Observer, right?). But Ron's death curse already been proven a false prophesy, as it didn't happen speedily.
Actually, that might not come true. I was to die from the inside speedily. Maybe I'll be hit by a bus and killed instantly. That would be dying from the outside.
(2) The blog that Ron criticized for being inaccurate was not this blog, it was the Weinland Watch blog. I've never said that Weinland grew up in one of the Carolinas. While Ron has addressed issues raised on this blog, he's never said that it's inaccurate.
(3) I never suggested that WO transcribe an entire sermon. He could transcribe a few sentences if he wanted to. I didn't see an exact quote, just a paraphrasing. Other than that, the material is online for anyone to download and listen for themselves.
Thanks Dill Weed. You are a very nice guy for a mocker. : ) I had this limerick about you pop into my mind last night. I don't think you would be offended but others might be so I better keep it to myself.
J: Ron didn't mention any names so it can't really be used for proof either way.
RKPDRMR: That would have been WO's comment you are referring to and he explained himself many,many times if you go back and check it out. For a 15 year old he has incredible patience
Mike: If everyone who mocked or criticized Ron was cursed to death there would be a lot of deaths by now. I would have already buries several family members for that matter. Sorry but you really can't use this "proof" no matter how attached you are to it. It simply doesn't fly.
observer,
in regards to your statement to w/o about him watching harry potter, (i agree with your statment to him)
wouldn't that also apply to one mans interpretation of the bible vs. RW's translation?
If this is truly what a man believes God is showing him through scripture, God would know that about his heart.
Observer,
I may have missed it, but if Ron's curse does not apply to Mike and me, to whom then does it apply?
Ron hasn't been specific outside of those former COG ministers. Given his general charaterization it seems that myself and Mike fall into that group and as Mike has pointed out I may be in front of him in line(!)
This appear to be open to interpretation perhaps Ron was refering to those unnamed individuals who sent him emails, but he has not said so directly so as to narrow his generalization.
Who then do you think his curse applies to?
Dill Weed
I just thought of something!
There is another way of looking at this.
Is anyone aware of anyone dying who was a mocker?
That might get us somewhere.
Dill Weed
From your comments Observer, I must conclude that it does not apply to ANYONE. You believe it only applies to people Weinland names, and since Weinland has not named anyone, there is no death curse. Why do you keep throwing around the word "proof" as if it's a bad thing?
That’s the proof of a prophet, whether it comes to pass or not.
That's from Weinland's own mouth. If a "prophesy" can't be proved, then it's not a prophesy! DUH!
Oh, and I find it very telling that you didn't bother to address my comment on Weinland advocating stealing from credit card companies.
There is another way of looking at this.
Is anyone aware of anyone dying who was a mocker?
That might get us somewhere.
That's the trick!
The only "mockers" Weinland acknowledges are these nebulous nameless entities. We only know the current status of these "mockers" from Weinland himself since we can't verify the existence of anyone in particular. So all the information comes from one source, and can be manipulated.
All Weinland has to do is make up something and say that those mockers have stopped, leading his followers to believe that those mockers must be dead. And just like that, he can create a prophesy and fabricate results to strengthen his own position.
As an addendum to my previous post:
Let's just say that Weinland proclaims that his mockers have stopped e-mailing him with hate mail. His followers (especially WO and O) would conclude that the mockers were dead.
But oh, Mike and Dill Weed would still be at their sites, doing what they do.
We'll all say "Hey WO and O, Mike and Dill Weed are still alive, Weinland is a false prophet!"
WO and O would say "They are still alive since Weinland did not acknowledge them as mockers."
Nothing would require a shred of proof. WO and O's faith in Weinland would be reinforced, we would continue our mocking even further, and there will still be a bitter stalemate in the comments section...
Mike
If I understand a-right then those un-named mockers of Ron are "cursed" to die slowly or quickly or whatever... but you are not specifically named. In fact no one is. So either the Curse without a target or against all the "mockers" (once again, because it seems to not have a target named unlike the COG splinter leaders who where named exactly). Ergo is not Dill and I and in fact any other "mocker" doomed to die quickly or slowly or whatever?
Your not alone buddy, we're here to cusion your fall with our dead bodies :-)
As for Prophecy vs. Prediction this has all become absurd from the PKG supporters, the picture is painted so no matter what Ron does he CAN NOT be a false prophet, it flat can not happen to the point of entertaining the notion that no one can be such a person, they are simply with a wrong "prediction".
The only question left along that line is "How can a person be a False Prophet within the rules set proposed by WO?" Is it possible at all for anyone? For if that is the case then sign me up for prophecy! I would like to begin posting large blocks of Prophecy by me and if they don't turn out right I can simply be seen as having the wrong predictions (just like everybody else!).
Whew, but delusion is heady cup is it not?
J, It's obvious whether a mocker is alive or dead. As far as the spending money aspect, it has been covered several times in different ways. When Ron stated something he shouldn't have or did something like overspending, he repented. If someone repents publicly he/she obviously does privately.
observer actually already answered your question in his message to me Todd. We can have varrying oppinions and lifestyles as long as we obey God's laws. He didn't say anything about various interpretations, just various preferences. If two policemen have varying prefrences with one liking pizza and the other chicken, they are still both police officers as long as they do their job. However, if one does not do the job right he can no longer be a policeman and whether he likes pizza or chicken becomes insignificant. .The same applies to God's law.
Everyone, Ron's curse was to the mockers. This includes everyone who mocks Ron. It's simple. If you mock Ron you're on the list. If you don't, you aren't on it. Mike criticises Ron but there's a diference between mocking and criticizing.
As far as a false prophesy Whisper, I'll re-explain. If Ron hadn't been given the 50th truth and simply announced the second trumpet hadn't sounded after it failed to on July 16, that would be considered being a false prophet. This is why the truth was given beforehand.
Ron deserves mocking. I don't mock God. I love God. I mock those who are are willfully and laughably disbedient to God and clearly pervert the gospel for their own personal gain, which is what Ron does.
I just love the fancy dancing that Weinland supporters do around his prophecies. They simply have no footing on the hot potato topic of Ron's false prophecies. They justify, rationalize, make things up, redefine, dismiss, side-step, create red-herrings, and ultimately keep digging themselves into a deeper hole of which it is harder and harder to climb out of.
I would like to make an observation about our conversation(s) here, a summary of what I am hearing.
Posters with an anti-Weinland perspective are looking for objective, indistputable evidence that Ron is God's prophet while withholding belief until confirmed.
I believe this is prudent given that there a many religous leaders making the claim to represent God as a prophet, if not in name, with what they say, all of whom have at least one failed prophesy. Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts. Google them and you will find their failed prophesies.
Repeating things the bible says will happen doesn't make one a prophet - or does it?
Sucessfully predicting something to happen - doesn't make one a prophet either, neither does repeating other 'sucessful' prognosticators claims. Economists, politicians have predicted recessions and wars. Repeating these predictions and amping them up - the dollar will be worthless, America will fall may or may not be prophesy.
Richard Clemente (A so called Trend identifier with a record of sucess) - has claimed their will be food riots in 2012 - not prophesy considering the source. But he is specific.
On the other hand, Ron is not specific, even though he claims to be God's prophet/Witness and to recieve communication from God.
(I am just drawing a contrast here.)
It's possible that God wants to keep the timing of events secret - until they happen not revealing them until they happen - then 'giving' it to Ron who then reports it ala seventh seal, 1st Trumpet, neither verifiable.
Ron has said as much - he won't know until God gives it or it happens - which makes Ron a reporter after the fact.
I can't recall God saying he was going to destroy something by a particular date or time. I could be wrong. (I am trying to present an overview here determined by available information.)
I believe it was acknowledged (by Observer, I think) that thus far there had been not objective, independently verifiable proof of Ron's prophethood.
I am not aware of any.
That leaves us in the position of, as described in the bible, the Two Witness who are described as the most powerful prophets ever having no outwardly evidence to justify their claims, yet.
Chime in. I think I have fairly described things. If not please correct.
Dill Weed
I woud just like to say, for the record, that I like pizza and chicken, but not red-herring.
And that I like all the company on this blog regardless of view. I just moved to the head of the line with WO's reasoned interpretation of mockers. I usually, turn down cutsees, btw, but I appear to be obliged in this case.
Dill Weed
Addendum to my previous post-
Where I said "Ron is not specific"
Not true. Ron has been specific. But he has not been accurate. Any specific timing he has given - has not turned out.
Sorry, I missed that. Again, I am trying to summarize objectively what I am hearing.
Dill Weed
Dill Weed: You have been fair. (By the way you may have missed my comment that addressed who Ron was referring to with the "death curse". However, even though I believe that you have described yourself accurately in your description of anti- Weinland posters, I believe that there are some, perhaps most, who will not change their minds no matter what. As for the proof of Ron being a prophet, the 50 Truths are much more important than any other individual prophesy, prediction, or any other comment he has made. Also, his integrity, love, patience, etc. in his personal life, whether or not you think they are there, are examples of the fruit of the Spirit in his life. I have witnessed some of these other self proclaimed prophets in action. There is a MAJOR difference. God has allowed me to witness many aspects of the so called Christian world and in His great mercy has given me much protection over the years. I am a critical thinker. I have often be accused of thinking too much but, I assure you, it is not my own ability to think critically and logically that has brought me to this place in time. Only a gracious, loving, patient, Heavenly Father could have done this and I will forever be grateful for the many times He has intervened in my life to humble me and show me the way to go.
"Posters with an anti-Weinland perspective are looking for objective, indistputable evidence that Ron is God's prophet while withholding belief until confirmed."
Partially right. I am definitely anti-weinland not because I am looking for indisputable proof he is a prophet, but because by his own words we have evidence that he is a false prophet. There are no muligans for prophets, no learning the ropes, no switching to a clearer frequency to hear God. You either are right, or wrong. Clearly, Ron Weinland sitting in his hotel room in April of 2008 realized that he was wrong. But repentence cometh not.
I need to clarify something: (I guess I'm not as clear as I think I am sometimes) It is not that I believe that the prophesies are not as important as the 50 Truths and the fruit of the Spirit, it is just that they are more difficult to discern as far as coming to pass or failing to come to pass. It is very difficult to prove them one way or the other.
If those who were in IW forum in 1998 recall, I was under the impression that he issued a death curse on ALL of us "mockers" when he first got his super powers. We were all to die slowly from the inside by cancer. Which I mocked because what's the use of issuing a curse to die slowly when we only have at most 3 1/2 years left anyhow, and most likely from his timeline we would be dead in the first year. Even a fast cancer kills in 3 years; a slow one.... could take decades. Why not just curse us to life at that point? It's like he cursed us right out of the Tribulation. And then he had to retract that non-curse. Which, of course, drew more mocking.
Turns out he didn't even have Aquaman's busted powers. He was more like Gleek or Orko or Snarf.
WO said "Do you honestly think Observer and I are going to both believe and be ignorant?"
Define "ignorant". If by "ignorant" you mean "stupid", it's not a matter of intelligence. Anyone can be deceived by any number of things. If by "ignorant" you mean "uninformed", yes. I think you are uninformed. I think you have nothing but rote and blind faith in a man's claims. If you were informed, you would What most everyone on this thread (most specifically O & WO) overlook is that Ron didn't start prophesying in 2007. He started prophesying things in 1997. Even he claims to have been a prophet since then. You have to start then to see what kind of a prophet he isn't. I sat there in person and heard him make economic prophecies about Y2K that utterly failed to come to pass.
And there are more. His predictions about 9-11 failed. After that failed, he didn't repent, but ramped up his book writing. Listen to the interview that he did on 9-17-04 with Denny Shaffer of WSPD radio where he claimed that the Tribulation would have happened in 4 years or he was a false prophet. That wasn't a prediction, that was an alleged God-inspired prophecy! He claimed he received it from God.
That was 2004. 5 years ago. Yet here we all are. I waited years to see what kind of spine that Christ peddler has. When he changed his story, I was less than surprised.
When Denny asked, "What happens to all the evil people?" Ron replies, "That pretty much ends here in the next four years." [empasis mine] Then, towards 21 or 22 minutes in Denny and Ron get into another conversation which I would like to transcribe for you:
D - "This is your interpretation of the scriptures, correct? The way you see it?"
R - "Well, you know what.. This book will.... If it comes to pass in the next three to four years and you start seeing these things come to pass, you'll become a believer, I'll tell you what. When you start seeing the kind of cataclysms that start taking place in this nation.." [Denny cuts Ron off]
D - "But this is how... But this is your interpretation of what the scriptures mean, correct? Just like ..." [Ron cuts Denny off]
R - "It's either inspired by God or it isn't. And if it's not inspired by God then it's a bunch of rambling, you know, hooey. Just like all these other people out here..." [Denny cuts Ron off]
D - "Right. But it's how you.... But it's how you determined, you uhh determine .. you know ..." [Ron cuts Denny off]
R - "That's Right. And that's why I put the proof in there that these things are getting ready to happen right now and if they don't happen, then, you know, throw all this away."
So there are the answers to a great many things right there. When O or WO claim "that's just a prediction", then Ron says "It's either inspired by God or it's a bunch of hooey." Those are his words.
None of those things he predicted came to pass. And his own answer was "throw this away." Why don't O and WO listen to their God inspired minister in that directive?
sorry w/o...
police eating chicken and pizza does nothing to explain o's position.
read his comment to you about harry potter...then read my comment...do not judge your brother is one of our Lord Jesus Christ teaching.
RW's teachings try to undo everything our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ taught us. This is the reason I believe RW is one of the many anti-christs that 1 john talks about. Read it again WO. Maybe your eyes will see things the way God has shown me.
WO, do you not understand the concept of circular logic? It does not work. It is a logical fallacy.
Your basic claim is that Ron is not wrong because Ron received the 50th truth.
OK, let us dissect that. Who gave Ron the 50th truth? Ron says he received it from God. How do you know God gave him the 50th truth? Because Ron said said so. That is circular logic. Yeah, you can "leave it up to faith", but everyone but you and Observer here believe that the 50th truth depends on Ron's honesty.
It's an endless feedback loop:
-Why is Ronald Weinland a prophet? -Because he was given the 50th truth?
-Why was Ron given the 50th truth?
-Because he is a prophet.
-Why is Ronald Weinland a prophet? and so on
That type of logic would never work, even in an elementary school classroom.
The ultimate test of whether or not he is a prophet. Each and every new day points to the correct answer, whatever it may be, doesn't it?
Edit: I messed up on the editing.
Mike, if you could be so kind to amend the above post, and delete this one. My apologies, and thanks in advance.
"It's an endless feedback loop:
-Why is Ronald Weinland a prophet?
-Because he was given the 50th truth.
-Why was Ron given the 50th truth?
-Because he is a prophet.
-Why is Ronald Weinland a prophet? and so on"
Thank you, O
Without a doubt, I find humilty is a virtue worth cultivating in all circumstances. I would like to point out couple of things - just because I believe they bear some consideration.
1. Undoubtedly, there will be some who won't change their minds no matter what. Bible makes that clear. The 50th truths can't be more important than any indiviual prophesy - because if any individual prophecy fails then we are dealing with a false prophet. I am not saying the 50th truths themselves don't have value. But they don't make a prophet according to God's standard. (Just tying things together here.)
2. Many indivuals display integrity, love, patience. They are fruits of the spirit indeed, but they do not make one a prophet or do not confirm prophethood. (Striving to be fair, accurate and critical in my conclusions here to maintain an important distinction.)
3. There is a difference between Ron and other self-proclaimed prophets. (again, being fair and submitting to the distinction God makes - the only difference that matters - is that what a prophet says - happens.) This is God's standard to protect believers.
4. You are a critical thinker, your response was measured and targeted. I want to, however, emphasize one aspect of critical thinking - critical thinking requires not letting unsubstantiated and therefore possibly untrue beliefs from entering your belief system (that is all the things you allow yourself to believe.)
What do we do when we have a belief we don't have conclusive proof for? We can allow ourselves to believe it conditionally. In science, this is called a hypothesis. A hypothesis is simply a belief that has not been confirmed. Scientists and critcal thinkers then attempt to DISPROVE that belief to protect themselves from the danger of erroneous (false) beliefs.
We can allow ourselves to 'believe things that MAY be untrue', BUT it is CRITICALLY important that we REMIND ourselves such beliefs are unproven AND that we remain aware of POSSIBLE ERROR even when evidence appears to support that belief - because later it may be proven incorrect. Therefore, proof, is the measure by which we should test all of our beliefs AND we should be prepared to change our beliefs when solid evidence dictates otherwise. This is the most important element of critical thinking.
As for believing that God has opened your mind, undertand that people experience difficulties and turn to God and get help in some way. Some of the help they receive may be from other people responding to their need and improvement sometimes comes from a change of disposition (that is one's beliefs moving more toward the positive). These things may or may not come from God, though, often, they are attributed to God.
Example, churches give food and shelter to needy people and then attempt to convert them. 'Love bombing' is the practice of showering positive attention on people to influence their beliefs and behavior that's why joining a religon is often initially a positive upbuilding experience. Later, things revert to normal.
(Again, I am just attempting to describe these things in a nuetral and objective way.)
Critcal thinking is an important skill to cultivate. IT REQUIRES YOU TO TEST WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE - THIS ESPECIALLY APPLIES TO THINGS YOU CAN'T SEE OR CAN'T VERIFY. Because sometimes people attempt to influence us for THEIR gain and sometimes for our own and sometimes both. It is important to tell the difference SO YOU CAN MAKE A WISE CHOICE.
We all need to believe in something. It is important, HOWEVER, to allow those things to be challenged from time to time, LEST WE GET LOCKED INTO SOME FALSE BELIEF. (Again, just trying to offer some information and perspective here.)
Have you noticed that I have used acceptance of and approval towards you to get through? Nothing wrong with that, btw.
The question is, WHY? For my gain? No, only to get through.
Regards,
Dill Weed
I don't have the power to edit comments, only to delete them.
All,
One note on my approach to this. I ignore Ron's past in my reasoning because it requires the listener to defend Ron or BE WRONG. That is creates defensiveness and resistance. It is in my view unlikely to be successful. I think Ron is a false prophet. He was false yesterday and will be proven false tomorrow, too, again.
But, the people we are speaking to can only recognize it for themselves by sifting the evidence at their pace. To do that they must objectively consider the evidence. I argue that it is difficult to do so when someone is telling them they are wrong.
Dill Weed
Dill, your last post to Observer was completely true. I do have an open mind and always did. To be open to a possibility does not mean to believe it. All it means is to be willing to change when proven wrong.
XHWA, Tribulation did begin in four years as it started in 2008.
Todd, I read your comments and Observer's. We can not judge each other but Christ judged with God's judgement and we can do that. There is a difference. Listen to the sermon series on Judgement and you will learn something although you believe the one giving it is false.
J, Yes, I believe that the 50th truth strengthened my belief in Ron being a prophet. 280 days after Satan's holiday being Trumpets and 1335 days from Trumpets to Pentecost being the return of Christ has not occurred and cannot occurr for the next 100 years. Thus, the 6000 years of man's self rule would be up by then.
The 50th truth proves Ron to be a prophet powerfully so.
As Ron says, "It's awesome to understand, truly."
Mike do me a favor if you don't mind and let me know whether you calculated the minute of Christ's return based on when the sun sets in Jeruselem? If so, could you let me know what it is in Atlantic Standard Time.
Also to all, I sent an email to cog-pkg asking for nearby congregations. They wanted to insure that I kept the Sabbath and Johnny wanted me to change my email address and Mike will understand why. I explained why I had it and about why I can't tithe and age etc. I was given the FAQ response. I then asked to know what helpcan be offered with my parents' permission as someone on a blog told me that something might be able to be done. I also asked whether people had been called to the Church in my area. Hopefully I get a reply!
Dill, I was referring to the comment on critical thinking, not the one after. Sorry!
DillWeed: You may have missed the clarification I wrote right after my first comment on this subject. I think it answers your first point.
That said, I have no argument with anything you have written. You are, clearly, a critical thinker and I salute you. When dealing strictly with Science and the physical world I agree this logic and "proving" is the only way we can deal with things but when the spiritual is being considered it is simply not enough. We must rise to a higher plain called faith. I never have or will suggest that we "leave our brains at the door" when it comes to discerning Truth on a spiritual plain. But neither will our puny brains ever be able to fathom God and His awesome plan for His creation. Again, in case you missed it when I said it before, my faith is in God not in Ron or anyone else. God can choose to reveal His Truth to me through His chosen servants. He has always done it this way and the Bible is clear that at the end there will be two witnesses so there is no inconsistency here. Having the fruit of the Spirit does not prove that a person is a prophet but the absence of it shows that a man is not truly following God. You can fake it for awhile but the fake fruit usually turns rotten
I would just like to see an example
from Weinland Observer or Observer
of what a failed prophecy would
look like, or consist of, that
would make them doubt Ron's claims
of revelation from God.
J, Yes, I believe that the 50th truth strengthened my belief in Ron being a prophet...The 50th truth proves Ron to be a prophet powerfully so.
Thank you for proving my point.
280 days after Satan's holiday being Trumpets and 1335 days from Trumpets to Pentecost being the return of Christ has not occurred and cannot occurr for the next 100 years. Thus, the 6000 years of man's self rule would be up by then.
I could quote the scripture about "No man knows the time or the hour, not even the Son...", but you'd just say that Ronald Weinland has thrown out that scripture. Some malarkey about stuff being fulfilled, Ron being exempt from that scripture, yadda yadda yadda. Save your breath.
Let's say there was no Ron Weinland and no 50th truth. That time pattern would still exist. If Jesus would go through the trouble of telling us that no man (not even Jesus) would know the day or hour of the end, why would you think God would provide such an obvious clue? If no man was to know the time or the hour, then there would have been no clue.
Dill Weed: By the way, there cannot be another timeline so stop waiting for one. Christ must return on May 27th, 2012. The Bible also talks about a year and a month and a day so the fifth trumpet must be backed up by at least that long plus whatever little time is needed for the 6th trumpet. That still leaves us plenty of time before the 2nd, 3rd and 4th trumpets have to sound because, technically, they could all sound in one day, not that I think they will, but you never know.
I have a feeling that there will be more people who will leave the Church because they will get tired of waiting for the big one, the PROOF. Many will be tried. My focus is not on the PROOF. It never has been. My faith is in God and He has never failed me. Even when I have been unfaithful, He has been faithful.
O,
I did miss it, but it may just have cost me some typing time and I'm OK with that, ;-)
"my faith is in God not in Ron or anyone else" (mine, too.)
All I can say is, "Yay!"
There is a convergence between faith and evidenced based belief though...
There will be objectively identifiable things that have to happen and Ron won't have to tell people about them, either.
The arrival of those things will establish what is truth and what isn't and this occurs before it is too late to repent.
I'm unclear, do you find Ron credible or not? A yes or no will suffice. (You may end up with the shortest post on the blog!)
Dill Weed
"I need to clarify something: (I guess I'm not as clear as I think I am sometimes) It is not that I believe that the prophesies are not as important as the 50 Truths and the fruit of the Spirit, it is just that they are more difficult to discern as far as coming to pass or failing to come to pass. It is very difficult to prove them one way or the other."
Thank you for that clarification. That is a very honest answer and I appreciate that. I can understand that it is a package deal for you- law obedience, sabbath, Holy Days, tithing, clean and unclean meats, prophecy, tribulation, etc.
I get that. I was SO enmeshed in all of that before I gained clarity on the Bible and what it was trying to communicate to us.
I also agree with you on the fruits of the spirit. I love the passage in Corinthians about Love being more important than prophecy.
Dill Weed: Yes
O,
You answered my question before I posted it. I believe generally in End Time events, not specifically in Ron. That requires faith, too.
I'm at a loss to understand how you can believe Ron when there are many other well reasoned beliefs. I admit I don't know which is correct and so I wait.
With all due respect, I believe, in the case with Ron, 'God giving someone understanding' is a deception Ron is promoting to explain why 'no one can understand Ron is God's prophet' and why there is no discernable evidence to support that claim.
Again, with respect to you, I see the possiblity for deception.
Dill Weed
J, Were you baptized in WCG? Those under 18 who's family was in the church could get baptized if they wished. You were 10 then with a hint of your age now. How much did you know then? Were you hoping your parents followed the truth etc?
Will answer your question with a scripture chapter. I believe in context and while a single verse proves a point, context varifies it. Allow me to record Amis 3. Amis 3:7 s important in answering the question, but so is everything else. Read. May clarity come.
1Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
2You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
3Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
4Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
5Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
6Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
7Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?
9Publish in the palaces at Ashdod, and in the palaces in the land of Egypt, and say, Assemble yourselves upon the mountains of Samaria, and behold the great tumults in the midst thereof, and the oppressed in the midst thereof.
10For they know not to do right, saith the LORD, who store up violence and robbery in their palaces.
11Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; An adversary there shall be even round about the land; and he shall bring down thy strength from thee, and thy palaces shall be spoiled.
12Thus saith the LORD; As the shepherd taketh out of the mouth of the lion two legs, or a piece of an ear; so shall the children of Israel be taken out that dwell in Samaria in the corner of a bed, and in Damascus in a couch.
13Hear ye, and testify in the house of Jacob, saith the Lord GOD, the God of hosts,
14That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of the altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground.
15And I will smite the winter house with the summer house; and the houses of ivory shall perish, and the great houses shall have an end, saith the LORD.
Meaning: wealth, religious institutions, all that is pride and wealth wil be taken away and the prophetsy will be given all the events before their occurring.
"If Jesus would go through the trouble of telling us that no man (not even Jesus) would know the day or hour of the end, why would you think God would provide such an obvious clue? If no man was to know the time or the hour, then there would have been no clue."
I think you nailed it, J.
So we have Jesus on the one hand saying no man knows the day or hour, and Ron Weinland on the other hand saying "But I do".
Who's lying?
RKPDRMR: When Jesus said it, that was the case. At that time He didn't know because it wasn't the end time. He didn't know until His father gave it to Him.
Dill Weed: It has been a pleasure chatting and I hope we can continue. For now, I will say goodbye until Sunday so please don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't make any comments until then.
WO: Have a great Sabbath! (I'm not saying that you shouldn't blog during the Sabbath. This is my own preference.) Take care and don't let anyone "beat up on you." Mike and Dill Weed will jump in if needed though, I must say , you hold your own pretty well. : )
Observer,
You're hopeless.
You show the effects of Ron Weinlands' governance on your mind.
You know, out of the multitude of posts on here, there are no answers about Ron's prophecies from WO or Observer. Additionally, Observer seems to be intentionally ignoring my questions/posts/comment. I guess I rattled her cage. Seems that the scripture to "always be ready to give an answer to the hope..." doesn't apply to her.
This whole thing seems to be a great p****** match between Ron Weinland and Gerald Flurry on who has the most extended and expansive prophetic prowess.
"J, Were you baptized in WCG? You were 10 then with a hint of your age now. How much did you know then? Were you hoping your parents followed the truth etc?"
I am 25 now, so no, I was not baptized in WCG. The church does not baptize children. I was baptized 2 years ago by a minister at UCG.
My mother rejoined WCG around 1993, and brought me with her. Frankly, I hated it. She never really explained church to me, at least not in a way I understood at the time. I had to figure it out on my own. At the time, all it meant was that I couldn't do fun things on Friday nights and Saturdays. She never engaged me at all, so it was an enormous bore. I didn't even really care until my late teens.
Those under 18 who's family was in the church could get baptized if they wished.
That is PKG dogma. I know all about that. While I was a "disobedient child" (according to my mother) for staying with UCG, she claimed that not only was my baptism with UCG invalid, but that I was saved through her provided I don't continue with UCG, because she was a member and I was a child when WCG fell apart. So, I'm saved if I live like a sinner, and I'm doomed if I attend UCG? Bull. That's akin to Mormons "marrying" and "baptizing" dead relatives, so that they could be saved in the Mormon church. It's insulting. You have no right to declare whom can or cannot be baptized, and neither does Weinland.
what blows me away is they completely ignore that Jesus not only said, "no-one knows the hour" but he goes on to explain why!
because God does not want the people on their best behavior just because He's coming, but because they love Him! That has not changed!
I may as well talk to the wall!
We seem to have ended up where we began, but we understand each other better and seem to have established a respectable dialouge as well as basis for understanding each other. That's probably as much as can be expected.
I have to say I was rather dissapointed by how this ended. I'd say truly so, but Ronisms creep me out. Using that language in regular speech means Ron is so in your head that your are parroting him. No offense is intended there btw.
I did my best to get through. I doubt O will accept another timeline change. The rest remains to be seen.
Dill Weed
"Additionally, Observer seems to be intentionally ignoring my questions/posts/comment. I guess I rattled her cage. Seems that the scripture to "always be ready to give an answer to the hope..." doesn't apply to her."
You're absolutely right, Mark.
I've noticed that also. They ignore answering certain things, because that would expose them.
One more thing: Observer said,
"When Jesus said it, that was the case. At that time He didn't know because it wasn't the end time. He didn't know until His father gave it to Him."
We can't put our own little qualifiers in there like Observer did. That is adding to scripture,
which is forbidden by God.
WO:
You answered my question with the scripture Amos 3:7:
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
You claim that this supercedes the scripture of Matthew 24:36:
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
So you're telling me that a vague statement about prophets receiving secrets renders obsolete a direct mentioning of the end time? What makes one scripture more valid than the other? You twist Amos 3:7 to suit your needs while completely ignoring a verse that directly relates to the subject.
""When Jesus said it, that was the case. At that time He didn't know because it wasn't the end time. He didn't know until His father gave it to Him."
We can't put our own little qualifiers in there like Observer did. That is adding to scripture,
which is forbidden by God."
Exactly todd. What she is really saying is that we are so much more advanced than Jesus was and that Ron is able to understand God better than Jesus was able to. Is there really much more debate on any of this?
Well said Dill. Now I will ask you something in a more respectful way than how I asked before. I've told you a bit about myself and we had a good conversation. Tell me a bit about yourself if you don't mind.
This goes for anyone else. I don't view people here simply as having one oppinion or another.
As for RKPDRMR and others, J didn't nail anything even in the aspect of debate. As far as the "No man knows the hour" business I unnaled the wood completely before it was even fully naile on a spiritual plane.
J, the two scriptures do not contraadict each other. They flow perfectly. They are parallell.
I'm curious to know if your minister teaches 14-15 passover. Also I wish you a good day of rest as well as an enlightening sabbath to all those who keep it in spirit and in truth whether you post here or not. No offence J for stating it in the way I did. I do wish you well and believe you are trying hard to keep what you know. Hold fast to at least what you have that is true. You will eventually come to know the whole truth. I pray/hope/have a feeling you will. I have some hopes for Kirrily and Dill in this aspect too. I don't decide though, God does.
If you are browsing and want to post but aren't, feel free to get on board! Look at me and Observer as examples of this.
Peace to all.
Surprise Surprise - I've done it again. A few posts from me....
O said:
"I have a feeling that there will be more people who will leave the Church because they will get tired of waiting for the big one, the PROOF. Many will be tried. My focus is not on the PROOF. It never has been. My faith is in God and He has never failed me".
Note: The PROOF of a prophet: by what they say coming to pass (EXACTLY as Ron stated).
I know O & WO are above all that, but are we not MEANT to see the PROOF of a prophet as a TEST that that person is in fact a prophet of God? Well, I was waiting for the PROOF (like I'm meant to - guess I was a lot weaker than O & WO hey).
Isn't God also meant to PROVE his prophets are from Him with EVIDENCE/PROOF (especially when the 'witness' himself says that will be the case?). O obviously doesn't think so.
Prophesy v Prediction = Faith in non events of physical Predictions of Prophecies themselves, yet transpriring spritially to those who can see, thereby defining one's very relationship with God, displaying the Fruit which is a proof of whether or not someone is in the truth or not.
Great logic there - lol.
Ron was blathering on for so long before April 17, 08 - things like "you don't have to wait long out there" blah blah blah.
He kept us on the hook - "not too far from now...", "the dollar will not be worth anything" blah blah blah. "It will be in the news...very strong" blah blah blah. (not to mention all the cryptic bulldust he would rave on about.."God said I can't give it to you yet" - then WHY saying anything at all Ron?(paraphrase) - blah blah blah.
That was a VERY strong FOCUS. "Total Resolve" the first "3 more weeks" - countless interviews stating EVENTS that were going to take place, thereby giving PROOF/EVIDENCE that he was who he said he was (as I have outlined GFW itself!).
In other words, he was having us wait for the PROOF (again, WO & O are obviously above all that - and above Ron too).
When everything FAILED, now this: "A murderous and adulterous nation seeks after a sign", "you all could learn a lot about your attitudes through all this, feeling silly in front of all the people you told", "you need to get closer to God", "we can all learn through this" or similar.
Oh yes, how the tables turned - making me feel BAD because I was FOCUSED on the supposed coming PROOF that he WAS GODS FINAL WITNESS!! (Another reason I guess why I stuck around until Jan09). (I must say here, I believe I did learn a LOT of other stuff whilst at PKG, a lot of it I thought good - as I have said here before - but that is not the topic here).
But that is what RON HIMSELF was focusing on, and was having US focus on!! "Better stock up on food, supplies etc - 3 months worth at least", "Better start to tell your friends and family now - it's going to get real bad out there", "not the time to start a family and bring a child into the world", "Give friends and family copies of the books so they can be warned for what's coming", "off to see our son as we don't know if we will see him again until the thousand years are here" (paraphrase) blah blah blah (Until after his failures of course - all that soon stopped!).
Oh how it changed then "there is no point saying anything to anyone out there, they are blind. Only we in God's true church can see" (paraphrase). Hang on, wasn't all this for God to provide PROOF (yes, O, PROOF) through fulfulling of Ron's prophecies, given by God Himself (no, O, not through his understanding of information available at the time - unless Ron was lying, and you at the time knew better).
To obey the WORD, you are meant to test the prophets - BY LOOKING AT THEIR PROPHECIES TO SEE WHETHER THEY COME TRUE OR NOT, or in other words, waiting for the fulfilling of 'the big one' as PROOF.
So, some here are NOT looking for the PROOF (as the Bible says to) and rely on their OWN UNDERSTANDING, which they conveniently call either "Faith" or what was "put into their minds". How convenient.
It is not so hard to understand for goodness sake.
I for one, am a little tired of being spoken down to by a 15 year old 'know it all' (albeit a very nice one - and my husband is very clever too, and often comes across like that and it is not intentional :-) eg. "I always knew the world was wrong" (and don't we all remember how we knew EVERYTHING too when we were 15! ;-).
I don't mean offence to WO or O, as they both seem like lovely people, but we can all see the superiority coming through - I should know, because I was the SAME a few short months ago (WO & O, you will NOT see this in yourselves until you either leave or Ron dies, gives up).
WO, you say that you would never blindly believe anyone, and you have 'done a lot of research' - then you say you believe Ron because of the 50th truth and a 'prophecy' about falling unemployment rates, and that you have been 'given' the truth.
What research could you have done in that case? I know you have done a lot - it's obvious, but what is also obvious is that you believe Ron because of 2 'prophecies' which you somehow think has been fulfilled, and things 'given' to you - your research is truth 'based on your OWN knowledge and understanding' - see the difference (I expect not). Again WO, don't confuse the 'truths' with prophesy. It would be wise to keep the two completely seperate. (Ie. you wouldn't necessarily through away Sabbath, Holy Days, etc because Ron is false).
Weinland Observer,
Correction: you're totally wrong.
J did nail it.
Jesus said no one knows the day or hour, Ron Weinland says "But I do, I figured it all out".
Who's lying?
Jesus' statement that no one knows the day or hour applies to our time as well, because the whole message, even as spoken of in other places, is to be ready, because we don't know when the Master is going to return.
No spiritualizing that one away.
You unnailed it before it was nailed "On a spiritual plane"
Again, the effects of Ron's governance on your mind.
You don't believe it now, but when this all fails you WILL GO THROUGH A LOT. I am glad in one sense you are so young, because you will have TIME to get over it.
Dill has explained it so logically and lovingly and many others have here too. Funny, these 'mockers' show a lot more patience and love than Ron does. (Mike, you wouldn't disfellowship me would you, if I asked you a question that you couldn't answer? Delete my posts or anything would you? ;-).
Reading through these posts, it has only magnified the type of mindset that I have thankfully escaped - by finally 'testing the prophets' as GOD'S WORD tells me too.
Ron came up short (to put it mildly). So I FLED as I am supposed to.
Yes, before that, I said EXACTLY the same things as WO & O are saying here. Stubbornly believing what was 'true' because of my BLIND FAITH, and what was being 'put into my mind' (realising afterwards it was ME ALL ALONG).
I believe that we are in the end times (maybe 1 year, maybe 100 years - end times can last a LONG time! People would have thought the 'end' was here in WW1 for goodness sake - and understandably so!), as I have said. I do believe that things are going to get bad, really bad for a while. Ron is still false, by his own book, words, interviews, and attitude.
GFW says that God is going to start to reveal himself (7th thunder?). God is doing this well, with a failed first timeline, and a failing second timeline. What happenend to all the thousands and thousands of 'newly called' that Wayne quit his job for?
God is NOT making a clear distinction as Ron said he would - to the WORLD, as to WHO He is working through, BY PROVING RON TO THE WORLD BY WHAT HE AS PROPHESIED COMING TO PASS.
Mike: I think I have been having problems with my email going into people's junk box - I sent you a couple of the last few days - just wanted to make sure you got them, and that I was not ignoring yours!
Rons 'governance' is a confusing mess, as I think I have displayed, and what we have witnessed in the 'fruit' of his believers/followers.
WO said:
"No offence J for stating it in the way I did. I do wish you well and believe you are trying hard to keep what you know. Hold fast to at least what you have that is true. You will eventually come to know the whole truth. I pray/hope/have a feeling you will."
There you go with the condescending insults again. I understand you don't mean to belittle others, but that's what you are doing.
You are belittling what I know, holding your knowledge as superior and mine as lacking and inferior. Cut it out.
Wisdom begins with the admission "I know nothing", and not "I know more than you." Humility is key. Comparing your knowledge to others is not humility. Again, I don't believe you mean to be condescending, but that's how it comes across. If you believe your knowledge is superior, fine, I can't change that. Just don't imply that yours is as such.
Well said J (and you said it a lot more quickly, and more concisely then me!! ;-)
Thanks, Kirrily. I have the benefit of already experiencing that. My mother says THE EXACT SAME THING to me...almost verbatim, to me whenever we get into it. It really gets on my nerves. She however, isn't as nice about it as WO is.
Imagine how I feel knowing I INFLICTED it!!
I wasn't as nice as WO, or O for that matter - I would totally lose it and say they would die etc.
I've become a much nicer person now, and am ashamed at the 'fruit' I had in PKG.
Some would say, I guess, I was never ' called' in the first place because of this, and never 'saw' anything, or was 'given' anything.
Wayne thought differently - said I was definately 'called' and said he could clearly 'see' those who were not.
Oh well, as Dill said - time will tell.
Tick Tock ;-)
Gosh, once Kirrily gets started up!
: D
A little information about Dill Weed. Male, 42, single, residence in TN, likes to fish (is good at catching small ones, caught 50 lbs of them after filleting couple yrs ago), enjoys the internet for news, climate change, financial, science, and for monitoring RW. BS in Psychology. Former JW. I take pains to choose my words carefully to get through. Even headed, though not flat headed. Wears old sandals during summer. Rides a bike around town. Believes in climate change, but doesn't believe we will stop it. I am a teacher at heart.
You can pull Dill Weed's leg, but you can't pull the Dill Weed.
Dill Weed
I've become a much nicer person now, and am ashamed at the 'fruit' I had in PKG.
The "fruit" of PKG is clearly durian.
;)
I still have a long way to go too!! (I'm getting there, trying to develop patience quickly!! lol ;-)
"The glory is always God's, but do you ever feel people like me and you share in it by being in blogs like this one to shed some light on the truth?"
Observer, you haven't shed any light on this board because you refuse to discuss anything regarding Ron's central claims as being a prophet. It's as if that is irrelevant to you.
We are waiting for just ONE example that Ron is a prophet other than "I believe we are starting the great tribulation". This is the heart and soul of Ron's ministry, yet you and WO haven't given anyone reading answers. Do you have any or does Ron got your tongue?
wo,
you only see what you want to see. for instance, look at your reply to my last post on the last blog...???? then read my post again.
Dill, thanks for the biography. Good that you're out of JW group. They believe something like only 144000 ever being saved ay?
Hope you catch some fish this summer. By Tn do you mean you live in Toronto or Tenissee? Are you a fisherman?
I still thing I nailed it, but why argue.
Kirrily, nice hearing from you. I don't look down on you. If I did I would have to repent. Notice how I have talked to you quite a bit and asked you about several things. it has been a pleasure getting to somewhat know you and to somewhat tell everyone here about myself believe it or not.
I believe I have read a lot to find the truth and that it was ultimately God who proved it to me. What I stated I admit I maybe should not have stated. As for me, I don't go around telling people they will die soon etc. Why?
1. It's fearmongering.
2. It's not my job.
3. It hurts people in more than one way.
4. There are better things to do in order to show outgoing concern towards others.
As far as the world goes, let me know more about it if you think I don't know enough. As for when/if I end up thinking Ron is false, I won't be hurt. During the fast time when I zoned out of the truth for a bit, I just went back to not believing what I had learned. Had I been a Traditional Christian I would have never gone back t o it even then. life just went on and I packed the truth away knowing that I would believe it if it were the truth by prophetic confirmation in the future or 1000 years later. That was all there was to it. No more, no less. I'm not exajurating. At the time I didn't look for any other COG as I knew they rejected certain truth. I knew that the Bible's authority depended on a COG being right. I didn't investigate and again figured I'd know in the future by prophetic phulphilment. I just packed it all in a trunk of knollege that I set aside in a corner on a spiritual plane. I do admit that would be easier at age 15 than it would have been with someone who was tithing, etc.
I was not confused in my head then. I knew there was a God and again strived to continue to submit to him in any way I could. I knew God would forgive me for searching for truth.
Whatever it was, it was not painfull at all. It was more like an "It's been a good time Ron but God I'll need your help in continuing to learn."
J, I didn't mean to offend you. Again, I only believe what I believe because God gave it to me. Without God the truth can leave me like a rainbow leaves one's view. This is a Weinland forum but if I knew you I wouldn't nail him on your head. This blog happens to be to be about the man. For the record, I don't go around saying I'm firstname/last name and I believe in Ron or God. That's hipocracy and pride. If you prefer J, let me know what you do not want me to say to you or talk to you about and I won't.
Mark, I hold to my beliefs and I did list several prophesies and thunders. Let's get two things straight.
1. I believe those prophesies have come to pass and are relevant.
2. You believe the opposite of what I said in step 1.
Also, I'm Weinland Observer and not Observer. There is a difference lol. Get the names straight please if it's not too much trouble. At least quote the right person if anything.
Todd, Sorry I misunderstood you.
It really has been nice getting to somewhat know several people here.
WO,
It's been nice getting to know you too.
I think both you and O have been a real eye opener to everyone.
6 months ago, I would have said, and thought, and believed the EXACT same things as you - so I UNDERSTAND you. Believe me.
This gives me both an empathy for you, and also a frustration at the same time! Such a conundrum, conflict of feelings I have toward you.
It think between the 3 of us, (yourself, O, and me) we have given the others here a very clear 'view' on what a PKG person believes, and why.
That is what is so important here - that these reasons are made obvious to all, and the mindset that goes along with it (which is the most obvious!). I am sure many here would agree.
Thanks WO - enjoy your day!
Its a beautiful day here in Australia, still a bit chilly for my liking - but sun is out :-)
Enjoy :-)
Kirrily, it's just as sunny here in Moncton tomorrow. It's nice out tonight too. I think I'll take a walk tomorrow.
I agree. You, Observer, and I made this blog a much more interesting, informative, and friendly place.
J, this might not mean much to you now but maybe your mother is one of the 144000 considering she had time to live a good part of life in the Church of God and for God to say "Now I know you" I'm not implying that God doesn't know all of us. This is simply something that refers to a person coming to a point where it is clear that consistancy in obedience to God and repentence in the case of falling short occurs.
"Mark, I hold to my beliefs and I did list several prophesies and thunders."
Nothing that's provable. Nothing that gives ANYONE a warning or a final witness. What he has accomplished is basically make everyone go- here goes another crazy religious guy.
The whole point of Ron's prophecies were that we would know the end is neigh. He boldly proclaimed it on a few radio stations and then fell of the face of the earth when his tale of 2008 fell through.
You are right, that was you who made that statement. Maybe Observer doesn't feel the same way you do about the purpose of your place on here so I shouldn't attribute that to her.
WO,
Now how did I know that you were going to say that. I'm disappointed in you.
The interview was in September 2004. The second timeline opening of the 7th seal didn't start until November 2008 -- greater than 4 full years later, regardless of the calendar year. That's in the fifth year.
Prophecy FAIL!
He didn't say "begins in 4 years and some odd months", as you read it. He said, which is why I quoted it for you to read, "ends here in the next four years", and he also said "comes to pass in the next three to four years".
You're in a bad spirit of desperation, WO. I'll remind you that you that Ron commanded you to throw his works away if they failed. Maybe he's not your minister. You should repent.
xHWA, technically it's in the next four years in terms of actual calendar yearrs. Now if the Tribulation were to begin in 2009, this would be false. I'm very familiar with the calendar and know what a full year is and this still occurred despite the new timeline.
I'm in no despeeration. As I write, I am completely relaxed.
WO said: Also to all, I sent an email to cog-pkg asking for nearby congregations. They wanted to insure that I kept the Sabbath and Johnny wanted me to change my email address and Mike will understand why.
No, I don't understand why Johnny Harrell wants you to change your email address. Perhaps so that I couldn't contact you and influence you? Maybe he thinks that I have magical powers to intercept their communications with you to that address? I give up.
WO - "technically it's in the next four years in terms of actual calendar yearrs"
You do realize that you're arguing for the pagan Roman calendar, which you believe God has no regard for, right?
And you also realize that you're arguing that something should begin when Ron clearly said it would be ending?
WO - "I'm in no despeeration. As I write, I am completely relaxed."
Never mind about that, WO. My comment on your desperation wasn't aimed at you, it was an off-handed remark about Ron Weinland's standard responses when he's questioned.
Some day you'll get one too, if you haven't already.
WO: My sidebar gives both the Jerusalem local time for sunset there as well as the UTC time. You'll have to figure your own time offset from that, maybe -3 hours and 30 minutes?
You stated:
If you mock Ron you're on the list. If you don't, you aren't on it. Mike criticises Ron but there's a diference between mocking and criticizing.
We've also discussed predictions and prophecies.
Relevant to that, you may find my New Year's Day post interesting.
Your reaction?
Mike, I read the new year post. It was funny I must say. Maybe you got seven headache plagues after hearing the trumpets? Perhaps there was a thunderstorm with several rumblings.
Ron said that the mockers would either stop or die speadilly. You haven't mocked that way in a while.
As far as Johnny wanting me to change my email it was because the name Weinland was in it. I was to change to something that did not involve cog-pkg.
I then explained why I created it and gave him my good email address.
Also, thanks to Wikipedia I figured out UTC-AST time difference and know Christ comes back at 12:36 PM Atlantic Standard time. What a day that will be if I'm still in that area. Right after a lunch of some sort if that's available. Now that will feel like magic and be a greater movie and happy ending than the last Harry Potter book could have ever been.
xHWA, Ron said the end would begin. He mentioned things beginning in the next four years in that interview. The Roman calendar may not be God's, but it is used in the world today so it can't be ignored.
The "cease or die" clause was stated in his April 2008 version of the curse. Took it to mean that if you mocked after he gave the warning, too bad.
When he restated his death curse in December, he didn't give such a clause. He just said it.
While I haven't mocked in that way, I have mocked in others. Every time I point out that I'm still alive, I'm mocking him. And I have pictures on the right side of my blog that mock both Ron and Laura.
OK, now I understand. I hadn't memorized your email address, so that part makes sense. Did Johnny Harrell respond fairly quickly? I thought he had senior elders below him to answer the emails and that Steve Dalrymple would have been the one to respond.
In May of 2012 we'll be on Daylight Time. The Jerusalem time for sunset is expressed in daylight time. If you Google for "time moncton" it will show your current local time, or change the search term for another location.
Hey Mike.
The time understanding is sorted out. It's -3 UTC in EDT.
After I sent an email to cog-pkg on Thursday I got one on Friday but this time it was from Johnny's email. This is different as Wayne tended to be the one who responded to emails.
After my reply to the second email that I recieved at my regular email address which consisted of an FAQ topic response, I haven't recieved a reply yet.
WO - "He mentioned things beginning in the next four years in that interview"
Of course he did. For things to end in 3 to 4 years, they must by necessity begin. But when did he say they would begin?
"I put the proof in there that these things are getting ready to happen right now"
Right now = 2004, not in the fifth year later in Roman calendar year 2008. And that's also why he said that 9-11-01 wasn't the beginning, but led up to the beginning. He expected the end to have come by 2008, which is even later than he used to tell us the end would come. That's why I hoped you would familiarize yourself with all he's prophesied (if it isn't from God it's hooey) and then you would know he's been making new timelines for over ten years now.
But, whatever. I din't expect you to agree with me now. But when you do, know that I don't think the less of you. Just like I don't think the less of Kirrily. I know exactly what you people are going through. Been there. I know how you are dead convinced that you've got it right; I know how hard it will be when you realize you were wrong. I say what I say so that you will remember. Most importantly, I hope you remember that God loves you, your time in Ron's church has value (if you can find it), and anyone can be deceived. You're not stupid.
xHWA, I listened to certain sermons where Ron states he didn't mention things beginning in the next four years by accident. I fell that Ron more or less knew the timing from 2004 onward but never stated it publicly. He had mentioned once that maybe 7 years after 9/11... didn't continue on with the thought.
Still believe truth 50 demonstrates why the timeline was at first incorrect and that it can't be any other way other than the way it is now.
Also, read a response I wrote to Kirrily a few posts back to read about why it wouldn't be hard for me if I were to think Ron was wrong or find out.
One question since you've been around for a while. At first when did you expect the tribulation/ what did Ron believe? also, was it obvious fact to you before the releases of the booksa general that when it all came down to it Ron would be one of the two witnesses?Yes, God loves all. I always knew this. However God's love doesn't equate to the way traditional Christianity portrays it. If I were to believe something other than Ron if he was somehow false, Traditional Christianity would still be out!
WO said:
"If I were to believe something other than Ron if he was somehow false, Traditional Christianity would still be out!"
Totally agree with you there WO!! That's one thing that has come out of all this nonsense for me that's for sure.
XWA:
I remember listening to some older sermons of Rons once, (I think 2000-2001 or similar??) - anyway, I turned them OFF because he WAS saying the same stuff back then "not too far from now", "you better start preparing" (paraphrase) etc etc.
Wow though, for 10 years hey! Boy oh boy.
I didn't want to acknowledge it though, so it was easier for me to turn off the sermons and pretend I didn't hear them.
Likewise, after the failure of the first timeline, I couldn't bring myself to listen to sermons prior to 50th truth delivery.
Didn't want to ruin my faith after all!!
Again, all comes back to mindset doesn't it.
Wow - when I was in there, you just DO NOT realise it's happening (I'm still only just discovering what happened really!).
Have a great day/night.
I'm going to hit the sack now.
BTW - am I the only Aussie here? Just out of interest....
Mark,
your wrote
"Exactly todd. What she is really saying is that we are so much more advanced than Jesus was and that Ron is able to understand God better than Jesus was able to. Is there really much more debate on any of this?"
This was in regards to w/o saying things have changed since Jesus said no-one knows the time.
Reading my bible this morning and got this scripture: in red letters meaning Jesus spoke this, Mat 24:35 "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
This was after blating the teachers and pharisees as hypocrites then going on to talk about the false profets and what to watch for in the end times.
God is good.
Kirrily, I don't think Ron knew when the tribulation would come. In 2001 which is the earliest I see on the website Ron often stated that he didn't know when. He talked about foot mouth disease, probblems with British , and the Middle East along European Union gains as being some issues that are indications of the condition of the world and that the tribulation could begin sometime in the next 4 or 5 years for all he knew or that it could indeed start 20-25 years later but that having a min dset for certain dates was spiritually dangerous and that being on guard always was the best way.
I don't think those in cog-pkg were worried about trying to set dates as a whole instead being focussed on how God had called some of a remonant and revealed the truths of the Epostacy to Ron and I don't know how much if any knollege on the meaning of some of the trumpets was back then. I also haven't been able to figure out when Ron knew the Tribulation would start. I remember that Ron said after 9/11 in one of the archived sermons that he thought he now knew how events would turn out and when but that he wasn't 100% sure and that God would give it in his time, paraphrasing.
From what I understand the message was going to spiritual scattered Israel at the time and that it only started going to physical Israel after the release of The Prophesied End Time.
Someone correct me if I do not have my facts straight. Observer will probably be able to straighten anything out if I misunderstood anything, but that will happen after the sabbath if it needs to.
Weinland has been selling fear for years. I have a sermon from 2003 in which he states that there might not be a feast that year.
Wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't handing that BS out even earlier than that.
w/o,
just curiouse, how long have you been following RW?
After reading Mat 24:23-26 I couldn't help but to think how the RW followers always say "go to RW's book/website/sermon to get the answer"
Todd, your question ended up requiring a story for an answer. In case anyone hasn't noticed, I write a lot and don't mind doing so. If I were to publish, I would spellcheck as well.
I heard of Ronald Weinland in the summer of 2007 but I didn't think much of him at the time although I did want to read his book as it was addressed to the world's three major religions from a prophet just to see what he would want to send to all three world religions. Most doomsday forcasters stick to Christianity as an audience as it seams to be the only religion that will take such prophesies. For instance, since when has a Muslim stated "The end is near? Rashid Kalifa is the only one I've ever heard setting a year 2280 as he claimed to have figured it out using a code in the Quran with the number 19 which is actually hinted at in a verse. With a person claiming to be a prophet for all three Abrahamic religions, I had to check it out. Note that I had just gotten in to personal study of religion at the time. I realized then that I needed to learn about God and do more than just know he existed and stay out of trouble.
I couldn't read 2008 GFW until I found a program to translate PDF files to txt as I'm Adobi Acrobat-challenged. I'll fix that soon now that I mention it as there's no point in not learning something you can learn.
Interestingly enough, it wasn't Ron's books but Mystery Of The Ages that convinced me of the truth. When I read 2008 GFW I didn't really understand the truth at first. In Dec07/Jan08 I read Mystery of The Ages and read all the articles on Ron's website with the exception of two or three which I read sometime during the spring along with the Prophesied End Time.
As far as how far back I know about Ron, I hope to eventually listen to all the sermons and study them although Ron himself stated this was imppossible but that it was important in striving to do so. After this I will read Armstrong's autobiography to learn more about how to have a successful life as well as the Bible Story Book. I already read the US and British Commonwealth In Prophesy so that was taken care of.
Then, I hope to read/listen to the material on hwacompendium.com which is run by a cog-pkg eldar and was recommended by Ron sometime in 2005. I probably won't be able to get this all done as it would take fulltime study and I have to live in addition to learning how to do it.
I hope that answered your question Todd and I think it gave a lot of other info as well.
WO asked "At first when did you expect the tribulation/ what did Ron believe?"
The Tribulation predictions actually start with Herbert Armstrong saying Jesus would come in 1936, then again, then again in 1972, then again in 1980 something. That it will "come soon", usually in 3 to 4 years, was always taught, so that's what Ron taught us. "Soon."
Ron was teaching us back in '99 that the end was very much nigh -- but he never mentioned being a prophet. There were monetary problems back then which he said would destroy the American economy soon. The Euro was going to take over, and Y2K would be the beginning of the end.
That didn't pan out. The dotcom bubble undid what he said would happen. America grew instead of collapsed.
Then 9-11 was supposedly a sign that the end was near. That was a watershed moment for him. Which is why he started doing radio shows like the one I quoted. The end was supposed to start then. When that failed, he started changing his timelines again which led directly to his 2008 book. It was supposed to have ended by 2008, but so long as he could make it start by 2008 (as you also stated) then he at least had a snowball's chance.
If that wasn't the answer to your question, please let me know and I'll try to answer you.
"also, was it obvious fact to you before the releases of the booksa general that when it all came down to it Ron would be one of the two witnesses?"
No. In the last decade he taught things that are the opposite of what he's teaching now. He was a completely different man. He never mentioned being a prophet. He was all for the board having authority. It was specifically designed so that no man could have control like in WCG. He almost disfellowshipped a man for saying that Jesus was a created being . He taught things - specific things - that counter what he teaches now. Mike has posted on some of those things. But it was when he got obsessed with Herbert Armstrong and his 18 truths (which were actually from Joe Tkatch Sr.) - always saying "trunk of the tree... trunk of the tree.." - that's when he changed.
When he announced that he was a Witness, we were all surprised. We had no idea he would take things this far.
quite a bit more information than i asked for...but, i get the idea. sounds to me like you haven't had much time to investigate some of the other false doctrins that are out there to see the parralels of how cults work. But, in time, you will see what several of the people here have been trying to explain to you.
p.s. I do believe we are in the final days...just don't believe rw is anything more than a false prophet/anti-christ.
Is it correct that Tkach is believed to be the abomination that causes desolation defiling the temple? The anti-Christ?
Dill Weed
Kirrily - "he WAS saying the same stuff back then "not too far from now", "you better start preparing" (paraphrase) etc etc."
Hi Kirrily!
Yes. That was typical.
When HWA started his career as a prophet, he got on his '19-year time-cycle' kick. He believed World War I was a watershed moment. I don't recall the details but I think the end of WWI started the 19-year cycle, so the end was then set to come in 1936-1937. HWA's very specific prophecy of Christ's return failed (you can read about that prophecy in the June/July edition of the Plain Truth magazine). He concluded that he was granted one more cycle. In another 19 years it was 1955, so "by 1955" was taught. That failed. Now it was "soon", or "3 to 4 years". The next cycle was 1974-75, hence the whole "1972 in Prophecy" deal (1974-1975 minus 3 1/2 years = 1972 ish). That failed. (Unless you consider an ad in the Reader's Digest to be a stunning success.) So we were on to the next 19 years. Time wouldn't last until 1993 FOR SURE this time!
Side note: People forget that Herbert Armstrong was also supposed to be one of the Two Witnesses.
All of those failures led to the idea of "in three to four years". I recall in 8th grade telling people that we wouldn't have to worry about graduation because in three to four years Jesus would have returned. I wrote a note about that in the time capsule that's probable still buried at my grade school. So Ron just taught what he was used to teaching - "soon". It was always a gun lap. We're approaching 100 years of "You'd better be prepared."
In 2004 Ron played his 3-4 year card... *sigh* again... as is recorded in that radio interview. But now he had reputation staked on it. When that failed, he at least had to start in 2008, so he came out with what we call "the first timeline". That failed. It was no impossible thing to predict his next move, as Mike clearly called it before Ron did. And Weinland Watch clearly also figured out many of the details. I know of other unrelated people who speculated what we now call the "second timeline" years prior simply by counting 1290 or 1335 days from Trumpets and in certain years hit Pentecost. It will happen again the first half of this century.
So, yes, it was always "soon". It will remain "soon". Goal posts will be moved, past failures buried, and things will continue until Jesus actually returns. And one day, some false prophet will actually get it right .. completely despite himself.
Dill, that is correct that the Abomination of Desolation was caused by Joseph Tkach Sr. An antichrist is someone purposely working against Christ and thus working against God. One can only do this if he/she knows God's plan because you can't be purposefully working against something if you don't understand it.
xHWA, The tribulation possibly occurring soon was a way of staying alert. I recommend you read an article at http://hwacompendium.com/BA/19year.html to find out about the "1975 prophesy" time cycles. The deal was that 1975 was predicted to be a year of mass technological improvement by notable figures earlier on. Armstrong thus made the book title 1975 in prophesy as he stated that the end would occur in the event of such developments.
Todd, I've seen quite a few beliefs I wouldn't like to have. A few are the likes of fundamentalists, cults of those who set dates and reset them, Traditional christianity, religions that build temples and buildings and care not for the poor, Zionism, racism of any kind, and those who support racist ideas among a few Ervan Bakster and John Hagee who's words portray great hatred and disrespect to various races.
Dill Wee asked - "Is it correct that Tkach is believed to be the abomination that causes desolation defiling the temple? The anti-Christ?"
Yes. That WAS regularly taught. Ron claimed proof as being Joe Sr. died 40 weeks after some sermon he gave.
Many people are changing their tune on that, though, because the time since his death simply cannot fit the Bible's words.
xHWA, Herbert W Armstrong was not a prophet. Nore did he claim to be. He was the End time Elijah, restoring truth that was previously known. Noticing restoring doesn't mean having everything revealed. It means "restoring" what was previously known. That wasn't specifically meant for you but to the next person who will say something like "then why does Ron have 50 truths now?."
Armstrong never stated something will happen for sure. He did speculate but said that dates were not set. If I tell you I hope to go to the beach next week as there is a good chance it will be sunny, am I prophesying? Am I setting dates? No, I'm just watching for the right time when a trip to the beach will occur! This is similar when thinking of Christ's return. The difference from then to now?? The timeline has been confirmed with perfet numerological values. It is set in stone! God has clearly spoken!
does RW even mention anything in the news that is actual signs of the end times as told in revelations?
particularly i am refering to articles on druge report stating:
gore says climate bill will usher in global governance.
or, china, india and russia pushing for new global currency. this is gaining in popular opinion.
as i stated previously, i believe we are in the end times...i just don't believe rw is who he claims to be.
Todd, Ron mentions prophesy and news but he seams to do it very briefly. An example is how he talked about the unemployment rate in May and the economy appearing to improve for a while and then collapse. Those are little tidbids that can be missed easily so I'm surprised people like Dill who listen for the purpose of hearing prophesy alone hasn't picked up on some of this. Ron seams to be given info by God in little pieces. Then he gets the revelation and hints at it's meaning until he can officially reveal the whole thing. That's what happened with time, times, and half a time. This Weightier Matters of the Law series set will be tied to something else when it is done perhaps. Also, Ron hinted at a future sermon on judgement and Revelation. This is how God gives inspiration and understanding. God gives spiritual knollege but every week there is some mention to what will be given in the future or to prophesy in one way for another.
Dill Weed: Did you re-listen to the May 9 sermon file with announcements I put on line? At about 3:45, Ron says:
"They’re talking about 8.9% unemployment"
Do you find his statement to be prophetic? Or even predictive? (please re-listen to the part after this statement as well).
Did Ron get this from God? Or maybe it was CNBC?
WO - "Herbert W Armstrong was not a prophet. Nore did he claim to be."
This is why I say you're uninformed. This has been disproved more times than should be necessary. It is all readily available on the Internet. And you should familiarize yourself with that information before making such claims.
"Armstrong never stated something will happen for sure. He did speculate but said that dates were not set."
Once again, this is not only false, but it borders on willful ignorance.
Should you but take a casual glance at something other than COG propaganda and read the writings of Herbert Armstrong himself (get the earliest copies since the later the printing the more they have been altered), you will plainly see that not only was he quite specific, but were dates set, timelines drawn out in charts, claims were made that the information was clear in the Bible and given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, etc.
Once again, for a specific example, read the June/July edition of the Plain Truth 1936.
You can claim HWA wasn't a prophet, but he gave prophecies, wrote on prophecies, approved the printing of prophecies by Garner Ted, Rod Merideth, and Herman Hoeh -- many of which were detailed and exactingly specific. NONE of which came to pass.
w/o...the bs about him talking about unemployment as prophesy is about to put me to sleep.
it's unfortunate you can't see that it was nothing more than anyone in the mainstream had said.
I think that xHWA said it best on his blog (I may be paraphrasing as I couldn't find the exact quote)
"Prophecy is as prophecy does".
HWA's apologists point out that he did not declare himself to be a prophet of the God of Abraham (although Weinland has). Therefore, the penalties of Deut 18 don't apply to HWA. Whatever, so @#$%ing what!! None of these false prophets have ever been stoned or put to death in any other manner for their false prophesying.
HWA did represent himself as an apostle of God and and allowed himself to be referred to as an end-time Elijah. The distinction as to whether he formally declared himself a prophet of God is lost on those who bought into this crap. Any arguing over the point is jail-house lawyering. HWA prophesied, and prophesied falsely. Period. He was a False Prophet. Get it???
Mike,
I re-listened to it from the beginning. He said, “I was thinking yesterday, they are talking about 8.9% unemployment. Fannie may needs billions more and the banks need billions more and yet the stock market is climbing. Just look at it and you think of the insanity that’s going on out there. The next time around when the underpinning of all this comes undone. It’s going to be a bad one because THAT’S HE BIG FALL THEN. This country and other parts of the world are setting themselves up for a bigger fall.”
First part is recollection – not prophesy. The 'big fall' is not specific. It can be put off into the future forever and when it does not materialize then ‘God is in the process of humbling the nations this way’ he just hasn’t got around to it yet.
Some economists have predicted another decrease too. Ron is just repeating them and amplifying it. Standard stuff and safe to because it can’t be refuted and can be dangled out there again.
Pretty ho-hum if you ask me.
Dill Weed
I have read some of Armstrong's writings and listened to some material but there is so much more that I can lookat through the hwacompendium.com website. I can't find an archive or else I would read that plain truth magazine and others. Give me a website of archives of Armstrong's material and I'll look at it.
Ron himself states in the Prophesied End Time that you should read and learn from whatever you can find from Armstrong. Help me out. There is one link that I know of that uses adobi acrobat files that my computer won't open, the searchable library. Find me sites with Armstrong's writing/audio that I don't know about and I'll read it. You all seam to claim to be experts on Armstrong's prophesies. Lead me to articles and writings, not just articles that slam him. I will check them out and will learn much from them.
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