For some reason the topic of Herbert Armstrong's alleged incestuous relationship with his daughter Dorothy has occupied the CoG blogosphere in the past few days. I had an exchange on the topic with RJ. The topic was also debated in this recent post on Ambassador Watch. Gavin has a new post this morning that compiles the different sources of this allegation.
Those who idolize Herbert Armstrong such as RJ insist that it didn't happen. Living CoG apologist Bob Thiel quickly responded this morning with his "Not Guilty" post.
If I were on a criminal jury for a trial of HWA on incest charges, I'd have to find Armstrong "not guilty" based on what's been presented. That wouldn't mean that I thought he was innocent, just that I didn't feel that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the standards required for a criminal conviction.
But I'm not on a criminal jury. We're not deciding whether or not to criminally convict him. So I can evaluate what has been presented and decide for myself whether or not I believe it. I think it quite plausible that HWA did what he was accused of. In fact I think it more likely that he did it than that he didn't.
Since we don't have conclusive evidence, those who idolize HWA are free to disbelieve it. I rather suspect they'd still disbelieve it even if there were a videotape of HWA doing the nasty with his daughter.
I have to agree with Byker Bob, who posts on various CoG blogs and forums, that it was unfortunate in a way that the incest allegation came to light. It turns the conversation toward the possible abuse by HWA of one child and away from his abuse of thousands of other children who grew up in Armstrongism. And adults as well. As he humorously posted elsewhere:
"Overheard at Weiner Dude's house this past weekend: "Laura, come out of the bathtub, baby. You're not going to believe this! The heat is off! All the bloggers have resurrected the old HWA incest stories and are preoccupied with that instead of us!""
Ronald Weinland has taken Herbie's membership abuse and gone further. While he doesn't have the number of members (his membership number is more on the order of a tithe of a tithe of a third of what WCG was at its peak) he has demanded more from each of those who do follow him. He has transferred his prophetic delusions to them and demanded their life savings. While a good deal of it is used to finance promoting his prophetic fantasies, there seems to be plenty left over to finance a lifestyle exceeding that of the average person including a nice $381,00 home and travels abroad such as his recent tour of the pyramids of Egypt.
Weinland is further abusing his followers, demanding a two-day fast. While he has limited this to members in good health, it's still abusive. I hope there are no health repercussions or deaths. Hopefully he will modify this at least to the extent of having them drink water, as he did during the one-day fast he called earlier in the month.
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The funny thing is, if this topic had come front and center before the holy days, Thiel, Weinland, and others would probably have attributed it to an attack by Satan.
In a sense, you almost have to put your thinking back into the mindset of an observant Armstrongite to appreciate the full impact this could have. Regardless as to whether it really occurred, (and I believe it did) it is just so "out there" compared to everything they have eaten, slept, drank, and breathed, that your typical member is going to reject it, and assume that it is the bitter fabrication of someone in the bonds of Satan.
It's difficult enough to get a member to consider some of the non church-approved scriptural references which present a different approach to tithing, the sabbath, or prophecy. You have to be really subtle and use much finesse to get past their layers of programming and undiagnosed Stockholm Syndrome so that you can help them. In most cases, this incest bombshell is going to end up being self-defeating overkill.
As Stingerski pointed out in his comment over on AW, it can eventually end up being the final icing on the cake. But, there's a lot of intermediate work you've got to do to get to that point.
BB
What I wouldn't give to learn from Ramona, Armstrong's second wife, whom he subsequently divorced. She was knowledgable about a lot of things which the Armstrongs (read WCG tithe payers) payed her dearly in the settlement to keep quiet about.
Interestingly, last year at this time was the 'Fasting & Sealing' of 144,000 during the first time line.
This two day fast sounds, to me, like a set-up for failure for RW's followers - whatever RW is twisting God's arm to do won't happen & then the followers will be told they did not humble themselves adequately - SO SAD!!!
Thanx Mike for continuing to 'shine a light' and bring truth to this situation.
The best way to listen to RWs sermons is with a fast forward button. Nearly 2 hours of sheer boredom. I was lucky to stop at a point where he said "people say, you aren't a prophet. Yes, I am. God is God and I am his prophet." That's a convincing argument Ron. Time will tell? Well, time has told. You aren't who you claim to be. Never have, never will be.
I have read Weinland's books and publications along with HWA's publications around a year ago and have been observing Weinland through listening to sermons and examining his site updates. I easily believed he was sent from God and had no problem excepting the 50th truth and even felt that the fall of the USA that was to occur either during the fall of 2008 or six months later according to Weinland's book could occur 8 months later due to Weinland's prophesy. Just so you know that some are seeing Weinland's lies for what they are, I saw when listening to the sermons that stated that the second trumpet could occur 2 years in to the Great
Tribulation if Cog-pkg members humbled themselves in fasting and prayer that this Weinland was truly false. I will continue to read about Weinland but not because I believe him! At least I don't believe traditional Christianity as after listening to Herbert W Armstrong and Ron Weinland it is hard for any thinking person to return to it! There is nobody who I found who teaches what the compelation called the Bible teaches as fully as Ronald Weinland, but this makes no difference in the fact that he has been proven after declaring the last fast to be what many thought he was, a false prophet!
In Ronnie's sermon today he made reference to everyone discussing the value of his home and criticizing him for having such an expensive home that cost $381,000. A few minutes later he stated that he could have bought a much larger more expensive housed than the one he purchased. This 2 day fast is sincerely humbling old Ronald. A few more hours of this humbling and fasting will undoubtedly make him more delirious. Ron, it’s probably best if you order the other witness to go to the fridge and bring you another beer and a sandwich.
"This two day fast sounds, to me, like a set-up for failure for RW's followers - whatever RW is twisting God's arm to do won't happen & then the followers will be told they did not humble themselves adequately - SO SAD!!!"
Well put.
I have noticed his sermons changing over the past several months in order to reflect that very attitude of transference to his "flock".
He has come very close to coming right out and saying, "The reason my prophesies have not come to fruition as I predicted is because you people are not doing your job by following the laws of God as I have laid them out for you." and these sheep are buying into it and feeling guilt.
" At least I don't believe traditional Christianity as after listening to Herbert W Armstrong and Ron Weinland it is hard for any thinking person to return to it! There is nobody who I found who teaches what the compelation called the Bible teaches as fully as Ronald Weinland"
That is truly sad. I'm not sure that you are turned off to traditional Christianity beccause of Ron or if you were turned off to traditional Christianity which made you find Ron. I was part of the HWA cult for 28 years and now have an orthodox faith in an orthodox church. HWA turned me off to heretics like Ron.
Matters such as this are no substitute for exposing other WCG corruption. However, they shine a light on the root of the corruption, which is that the church was founded and run by a deeply corrupt man.
The truth is also a test. How many of these people have a love of the truth? How many do not love the truth as much as they claim to -- leaving them open to believing lies? THat's a big issue -- far bigger than a simple crime of a father against a daughter.
YOU CANNOT STOP THE TRUTH! Trying to stop the truth is trying to stop the Eternal himself. Sooner or later, those trying to "hold back the truth in unrighteousness" will be crushed by it. You may as well make friends with the truth, no matter how unpleasant. There is no safe alternative.
Church Trek
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