False Prophet Ronald Weinland spoke from Los Angeles today, cooler there than Cinci. He announced a few upcoming trips with Hawaii planned for next week.
Then Weinland took several minutes to explain what happened at ideaCity.
The audience during his presentation was generally respectful during his presentation, except for a couple of people who smirked at his British Israelism. He did not reiterate his objections to what Tom Harpur said. It was the 4th following presenter who stunned him. Ron compared it to having a close friend killed next to him and then hearing that person mocked a few days later. Laura equated Ron's experience with one of Paul's.
Ron was still so stunned three days later that he didn't know what he was saying in last Saturday's sermon. He was thankful that he could edit the sermon, but everyone got the gist about the time, times and half-a-time being one seventh.
Some also got the gist about the significance of the presentation being 7 days later from the end of half-a-time, even though it was 6 days later. Let's review what he said, and what he edited out (the part in italics below).
Updated: I guess that Ron is rubbing off on me, got a couple of commenters confused due to the similar handles. I'd meant to ask the question of another commenter.
"Weinland Observer", what is your reaction to Ron's explanation?
Then Weinland took several minutes to explain what happened at ideaCity.
The audience during his presentation was generally respectful during his presentation, except for a couple of people who smirked at his British Israelism. He did not reiterate his objections to what Tom Harpur said. It was the 4th following presenter who stunned him. Ron compared it to having a close friend killed next to him and then hearing that person mocked a few days later. Laura equated Ron's experience with one of Paul's.Ron was still so stunned three days later that he didn't know what he was saying in last Saturday's sermon. He was thankful that he could edit the sermon, but everyone got the gist about the time, times and half-a-time being one seventh.
Some also got the gist about the significance of the presentation being 7 days later from the end of half-a-time, even though it was 6 days later. Let's review what he said, and what he edited out (the part in italics below).
And all of this is significant as God does things in a very orderly manner. It's no coincidence that even seven days later I gave the kind of speech that God had me deliver. God is indeed setting the stage for far greater things to follow.
For me his explanation for what he said last week fell flat. Ron should have explained exactly what he had to edit in order to correct it for those who got that gist-- I could have had a bit of respect for that. As it is, those who found his deleted statements significant are still under that impression, unless they make careful comparisons between the two versions of the sermon. Or unless they read my blog -- and what are the odds of either of these happening?
"Observer", what do you think of his explanation?Updated: I guess that Ron is rubbing off on me, got a couple of commenters confused due to the similar handles. I'd meant to ask the question of another commenter.
"Weinland Observer", what is your reaction to Ron's explanation?
94 comments:
Hi Mike,
As I said from the beginning, I didn't think Ron was making anything of the fact that he spoke a week after the interviews. What was important was the fact that the interviews, and a new level of respect, happened at the beginning of the second half time. I've also been saying all along that it is very significant that the "speech" by Rick Millar was so offensive to him. It speaks of Ron's character and of his love and fear of God. It does not surprise me that Ron was physically and emotionally drained last Saturday when he delivered his sermon. I feel that his explanation was sufficient. Any more would have, in my opinion, been overkill.
yeah, i guess it would be exausting to have to come up with new excuses for your failures on a weekly basis.
Todd
We are surely into the tribulation for sure.... Billy Mays...the infomercial guy is dead. I believe this is a fulfillment of a thunder.
Well it is clear that the seven days after first 1/7 theory I heard on the last sermon before edditing was insignifican. It seams Weinland had quite the battle last week. He did state his error, and I believe that was what he had to do to be right before God. Clearly the second phase of the fifth thunder sounded last week, but those are as Weinland says every once in a while, rumblings. From what Weinland said in the past in his last two sermons of 08, we are on thunder 4 taking presidence which is the economy. My theory, though maybe not the actual fact, is that at some point in time Weinland will become more well-known through media coverage in the same way that 2012 has been over the last few years. I can see many more know about 2012 now than they did even a couple of years ago. Currently his adds are only found easily by those looking for enddtime or conspiracy theory info but like the 2012 theories, his message wil become more well-known very quickly when it does. A TV brodcast on him by an international channal for whatever reason under the sun is all it would take! Sidenote: Has anyone ever thought of what could happen to Weinland at a time when a major prophesy like trumpet 2 came to pass? Then the government would be on him bigtime. Weinland aside for a second, With all the prophesies of the Mayan calendar, Traditional Christians, the Iching, the coming of the Mahdi in 10 years according to a hadith, and the conspiracy theories and documents like the Project for the New American Century, the next few years will be interesting to all. Putting. I now have an even better glimpse of what needs to happen for the truth to be known.
Wisdom and light.
"Clearly the second phase of the fifth thunder sounded last week..."
"As the leader of the Living Church of God, Roderick Meredith is mentioned as one of many ministers who will die as a result of the prophesied Fifth Thunder.” [Ronald Weinland web site "Interview Comments", (near the bottom of the page)]"
So, how come no "first phase" of the 5th thunder?
Also, don't forget: "“Before the Seventh (and final) Seal is opened, [March 18, 2008] the Seven Thunders will become so pronounced that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth.” [pp. 115, 2008: God's Final Witness]"
Wait, why am I arguing with you, Weinland-elder-wannabe? You're onboard for the third timeline, aren't you?
Interesting...
I'd hate to see Weinland get more publicity because of being associated with the 2012 hysteria that is building. It wouldn't really show God's hand if it happened that way. BTW, there's a 2012 movie coming out that looks scary
I'd rather see Ron announcing God's judgment on the nations and say that it will not rain in a specific location and perhaps a few of the plagues Egypt experienced, too. (just wishful thinking, but if your're reading, Ron... ) That would be a way to announce their presence.
My prediction, ain't gonna happen, but I'm still gonna be watching.
As for Ron becoming so upset with the blasphemy he witnessed, I'm left wondering why God didn't use Ron then and there to amplify His Holy name. (Maybe, Ron can answer...) Imagine what Ron imbued with Two Witness Powers could have done.
Perhaps, God's plan is to play this subtly though... allowing His Witnesses to continue their rather ho-hum ministry for a year or two into the End Time?
It would be nice if God got specific with Ron, a few fulfilled prophecies might get him more respect and media time. More accurate predictions than economists and weathermen make. You've got to be specific and right to get respect Ron - with other than a meek audience.
It was a dissapointment to hear Ron say that he now believes that he won't get his Two Witness Powers until after the 5th Trumpet. Where's the fun in that?
I mean there is going to be a lot happening after the 5th Trumpet. It doesn't seem like a long time for the world to get to hate him and his wife so much that they would celebrate their deaths by giving gifts, does it? Ah, well, but Ron reveals God's plan as God reveals it to him. So, we will just have to wait.
I'm OK with waiting and watching for the proof of a prophet.
I don't like that Ron is so vague with his prophecies, but maybe that will change as God continues to work with Ron. In any case, I'll be listening and reporting.
Dill Weed
Purple Hymnal, how could I possibly be on board for a third timeline if I don't even know the timeline or that it will be in place? I am not some blind believer in whatever I come across as if I was I would have been intrenched in some unsencible belief a long time ago. Remember from my first few comments on this blog that I toggled from believing and disbelieving in Weinland as a result of jumping to conclusions. As I said before, when the fast was introduced that would delay the trumpets I had had enough! The first thing I did during the sermon was alt F4. Then I kept listening to the starts of Weinland's sermons, reading this blog, and went back to my belief in the truth simply being to believe in God and treat others the way you want to be treated while believing that Weinland was sincere but sincerely wrong and that Herbert W Armstrong had the truth that came closest to the pure version of Christianity. After an unemployment rate magnitude increase prophesy by Ron made for May came to pass when reported on news in early June, and especially after hearing about time times and half a time and taking a guess, I realized that I needed to repent. I may turn away in the future if I am weak. I may or may not be turned back right away. Only God knows and the creddit is always due to God who calls. Are these the words of someone who would blindly walk in to a third timeline or anything for that matter?
Dill Weed , what is the name of the 2012 movie? I'd like to look it up.
Oddly enought the title for the 2012 movie is .... (drumroll)
2012
Hee-hee! : )
There's a link to the trailer on my blog. If you click on my name above, it will take you there.
Just keep thinking critically, Weinland Observer. I've had to fight the End Time flu I caught as a JW, too.
Dill Weed
weinland observer,
how do you explain 1 john 2:26-27 "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. but the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
this tells me, that the anointing of Christ is in me and I don't need RW or anyone else to teach me as long as I remain in Him.
The only truth is found in God's word. I highly recommend you check RW's teachings against THE TRUTH which is God's Word.
Billy Mays ain't dead!
I just seen him on TV. He was tryiong to sell me some baking soda.
Dill Weed
"....while believing that Weinland was sincere but sincerely wrong and that Herbert W Armstrong had the truth...."
*sigh* So close, and yet so far. The one toxic thing that HAS come out of all of this, is how many sheeple Witless Weinland has turned on to the other toxic Church of God splinter groups.
Any wonder they're not fighting back harder! More ready-made tithe slaves for them, once the 3rd timeline blows up, and the sheeple vote with their feet!
Observer, Herbie never had any "truth", he was an advertising flimflam man from the early 20th century, out to make a fast buck, because his ad business was failing (this was the Great Depression, after all). And if you don't believe me, let Herbie tell you himself.
How successful was Herbie's little tithing scam? Check out the $3 million chandelier that hung in the Ambassador Auditorium lobby. KScribe used to have a video up, of Herbie entertaining some "Young Ambassadors", as they were wined and dined with gold-plated cutlery. While most of those of us in the outlying congregations were lucky if we dined from paper plates with plastic cutlery, half the time.
(Or, like my family did, made do with the chipped and cracked dishes from the Salvation Army Thrift Shop, until we managed to save up enough for a small set for ourselves.)
Armstrong lifted his "theology" (there's a reason it's in quotes) from the Pentecostal Quakers he grew up with, the Adventists he was ordained by, some Mormon stuff about "the god family", added in a good old dose of apocalypticism, mixed, distributed, and called it a day.
Actually, he called it "1975 in Prophecy", but no one in my family knew that, because they got in, in '76. I didn't know about "1975 in Prophecy" until 2007.
Three-quarters of a century later, and Herbie's promised Kingdom ain't come yet.
Do yourself a favour, Observer, and get out while you still have some critical thinking faculties left. The Armstrongist parallel universe is neither a pleasant nor a spiritual place to be. No matter how many splinters you hop through, trying to find "god's true church". (What, there's 650 now, isn't there?)
And I hope to whatever deity you believe in, Observer, that you don't have a spouse and kids wrapped up in this tithing racket. Your family deserves better. Your family deserves YOU. Not some mindless automaton, waiting for "the wonderful world tomorrow".
We waited all of our lives, those of us born and raised in the church, for that promised wonderful world tomorrow.
Tomorrow never came.
Tod, the scriptures you quoted involve continuing in the truth that is give. Read in context, from verse 15 of 2John 2 onward to discover the meaning of the verses collectively. With all religions, incorrect belief comes from taking words from revelations out of context. Purple Hymnal, I watched the video. I also read Mystery of The Ages where Armstrong admits he had to basically become broke before taking interest in God. When you say get out I don't know what you mean as I am not in. Let's say this is due to some circumstances. Anyway, I would never become too interested in any other cog as it is clear they have false beliefs and those who at least keep to Armstrong's truths like RCG are very opressive. To think that someone claiming to teach God's truth would say that the man of the house has the right to sell everything and donate it to the church like RCG leader did according to another of these WCG-related blogs. As I have posted, I have a life and if I may add it's not an online life or one of preaching. I feel bad for anyone who ever presses pause on life to prepair for the Tribulation. The Tribulation will change your life as it will mine and many others. Concerning the end time Jesus says watch therefor and pray always, not watch therefor and let the endtime deter you from living. Not going to college because of impending tribulation is no excuse. I'm sure knolege is just as valuable in the world Tomorrow as it is today. As for the tithing, it was commanded in the bible not just by Armstrong. If anyone doesn't agree with it, then they don't agree with the bible. That's okay as the bible's volidity is controvercial. According to what Armstrong was given as truth, the bible itself indirectly claims it does not have to be believed and won't be by most people. Basically anyone with doubts needs not believe right now. If right now I left everything about Weinland, Armstrong, and Church of God in a corner and never thought of it again, especially as I am not baptized, Cog teaches that I would be rezerected in the Great White throne, 1000 years after Christ's rule! In conclusion, my life has a direction and purpose along with some future plans which will probably change. The bottom line is that life, end time melenium or otherwise, is still life! If God wants to give you trials he will do so, but it's not our job it's God's. I plan to live, not just to breath and eat but live and I hope all of you do too!
May life be with you!
weinland observer,
i did read the scripture in complete context and me understanding of it stands.
Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world.
Another scripture that comes to mind from your latest post states "do not love life so much that you tremble at death".
I enjoy life to its fullest because we are not guarenteed tomorrow. The death of my flesh is of no concern. God promises me more after.
It's all very well and good to say there is no excuse to put your life on hold for the tribulation - but what about having children?
If you truly believed that the tribulation was going to occur in the immediate future, why on earth would you try to have a child?
Education, going to University - yes, no reason to put that on hold. But children? Why bring a baby into the world so it can get 'nuked' according to Ron?
Some make out like Ron is doing no harm - and that others like HWA did no harm either - instead, blaming the 'believers' for 'putting their life on hold' - making out like the believers are the fools, instead of the 'prophets' who are speaking presumptiously. (BTW - 'Believers' who keep believing despite evidence to the contrary deserve no respect or sympathy).
Just like Ron - blaming his followers who became unbelievers (because nothing he said came to pass) instead of taking a good hard look at himself instead. (Those believers should listen to his sermons back in 2004 when he was saying the same stuff as he is saying now. Say something long enough and it will come true).
It appears his followers here are no different. Ignorance is bliss.
What about other such serious issues - say not having cancer treatment etc.
People may feel 'sorry' for those who put their life on hold for the tribulation - but given the above, it is very easy to do. You either believe the tribulation is coming or not.
If you do, (and like many, many other people who have 'prophesied' that a Great Depression is iminent - and again, many others are a LOT more specific - and have been a LOT more accurate than the self proclaimed prophet of God)then no matter what you say, you do put your life on hold to whatever degree. Have you 'believers' here stocked up on supplies, spent thousands of dollars on water purifiers, emergency medication to mitigate the effects of the detonation of a neclear weapon, bought extreme condition clothing, food, pet supplies, etc etc etc?
If you have, is that not putting your life on hold? Just doing those things put's you mind into a certain frame - you can not help it. If that is not the case, sorry, but you really do not believe Ron after all.
If you are told Nukes are going of on 17 April 2008 - why would you go to the USA? That is putting your life on hold.
If you are told that the US Dollar will be worth NOTHING 'in the near future' (oh yes, that's been the case with Ron for MANY years) then if you were a trader, you would trade differently. That is putting your life on hold.
It is pure ignorance to blame people for putting their life on hold for believing end time prophecies.
Again, it seems to be a habit of Ron and his believers to turn everything around back on the 'unbelievers' and 'x-believers' like me - we are the ones who are blind, naked and dumb.
Shame on you.
For those of you who believe Ron because of the US unemployment rates - wake up. Many, many, many people are saying the same things.
What makes Ron any different to a thousand others predicting the Great Depression.
To use one of Rons sayings 'It's not rocket science'.
If Ron wrote the book for 'unbelievers' - he has FAILED. You would expect God would set his Witnesses apart, and 'give' them information that the world hadn't already had.
Well it is clear that the seven days after first 1/7 theory I heard on the last sermon before edditing was insignifican. It seams Weinland had quite the battle last week. He did state his error, and I believe that was what he had to do to be right before God.
Question: If you had not visited my blog, would you have understood that the 7-day period was insignificant based on Weinland's explanation this past Saturday? I think not. He needed to really come clean, and he was rather vague. His justification was rather silly, but I'd set that aside if he'd truly explained the message he changed. I don't care about the long pauses and "uh"s that were edited out.
Clearly the second phase of the fifth thunder sounded last week, but those are as Weinland says every once in a while, rumblings.
Celebrities have been dying in groups for decades. Check out this article.
From what Weinland said in the past in his last two sermons of 08, we are on thunder 4 taking presidence which is the economy.
But all the other thunders were to intensify before the opening of the 7th seal. Since "2008 GFW" was released late in 2006: When was the terrorist event that exceeded 9/11? When was the weather event that exceeded Hurricane Katrina?
My theory, though maybe not the actual fact, is that at some point in time Weinland will become more well-known through media coverage in the same way that 2012 has been over the last few years. I can see many more know about 2012 now than they did even a couple of years ago. Currently his adds are only found easily by those looking for enddtime or conspiracy theory info but like the 2012 theories, his message wil become more well-known very quickly when it does.
Interesting that you should mention "2012". That's one of the top keywords that Weinland buys to send traffic to his website.
A TV brodcast on him by an international channal for whatever reason under the sun is all it would take!
Not necessarily. Depends on how he's covered. I saw the video the Australian ABC did on him last year, and he comes across like the deluded fool he probably is. I say "probably" because I'm not 100% sure he's drinking the Flavor Aid that he's handing out.
Sidenote: Has anyone ever thought of what could happen to Weinland at a time when a major prophesy like trumpet 2 came to pass? Then the government would be on him bigtime.
The government is already on him big time with the IRS investigation.
Weinland aside for a second, With all the prophesies of the Mayan calendar, Traditional Christians, the Iching, the coming of the Mahdi in 10 years according to a hadith, and the conspiracy theories and documents like the Project for the New American Century, the next few years will be interesting to all. Putting. I now have an even better glimpse of what needs to happen for the truth to be known.
And after all this, there will be a new set of theories to worry about.
Wisdom and light.
Ditto.
is weinland observer the same as citizen x? hmmm
"The government is already on him bigtime with the IRS investigation".
I really hope they nail RW, and soon. If this thing somehow plays out all the way to 2012, I fear that some very bad things are going to happen in the COG-PKG.
Kirrily, for the record, preparing for the Tribulation physically is not putting life on hold. Some websites like threeworldwars.com include preparation guides for world War 3. BTW, that's where I found 2008 GFW in early 2007 but couldn't read it since I didn't know how to use adobi acrobat and read it after finding a program called PDF to txt which translated the pdf files to txt files. There are obviously some things that you may need to consider when preparing for disasters, but for the most part they are recommended by many including the US Government. As for who I was pointing my last post to, it doesn't particularly involve Weinland Believers or non-believers but anyone who literally stops life for the end times. As far as blaming Weinland or Armstrong, everyone is responsible for what they believe and what choices they make including them. It seams even Weinland confessed some money decisions based on what he simply expected to happen. I don’t understand why people would find overshopping and being irresponsible in finances whether directly or indirectly, in the pretext that they would never need to be paid back due to the Tribulation! If this was jst in a book I would laugh, but it’s reality! As Ron would say, “Where is the soundness of mind in that.” You said yourself that you did not do this, and from what you were saying you believed what was going to happen. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you didn’t overspend because you found it to be unwise as you probably recognized that life still required money and you couldn’t be absolutely sure of when this would change. Maybe you had other reasons, but this didn’t reflect that you did not believe what those who overspent did. As for those who overspent, it was bad judgement.
As for preparation, give me an example on how the average person could end up keeping their life on hold by being prepared for the Tribulation.
Finally, don't just assume that I think low of anybody. I don't know anyone or their life personally, but from a knolege bperspective everyone seams to be trying to learn. Believe it or not, I can understand why you do not believe Weinland as the fast had been to far for truth for me at the time. As for listening to 2004 sermons, I’m eventually getting them all listened to as that is one of the things Weinland says is needed. The instructions on the site are there for a reason, to understand more. At first I thought I didn’t need the sermon archives as the books and Armstrong’s writings wer enough. That is maybe why I stopped believing Weinland everytime something was revealed. Maybe I was never doing enough. There is a lot as Weinland said, and I think you would have to be on fulltime to understand everything on it. As it turns out I am not, can not be, and will not be a full time bible scollar but am trying to learn as much as I can from the site. I’ll get to those 2004 sermons soon enough, but I can’t quite y Weinland doesn’t have every weekly sermon on the site and only a few for some years. Have you ever considered why this is the case?
Mike, I would have picked up on the insignificance of the half a time and seven days business. However your blog made it easier than it would otherwise have been and maybe I followed by you managed to draw Ron’s attention to the discrepency unless Weinland customarally listens to his sermons.
Todd, I am not Citizen X. Citizen X has his own blog and would post there if he wished, and in case you haven’t realized he no longer believes Weinland and gave him until March 14 with the 45-90 days of first Trumpet announced on April 17. I only originally gave Weinland the shot until he announced the fast. I would love to know why you think I am Citizen X. Please explain. It will be a good read.
Lastly another comment, the Project for The New American Century is no theory but and actual plan for America composed by a thinkta consank in the late 90’s. It is not a conspiracy theory but an actual documented plan by those who control America. Has anyone here heard of Information Clearing House? Look it up!
WO:
It was your comment replying to my first post on the topic back on the 21st that brought the 7-day issue up.
I doubt that the June 21 sermon was edited in response to this blog. Laura was at the conference and knew what day his presentation happened. My guess is that Jeremy spent a good deal of his Sunday editing the sermon after Ron told him to after Laura pointed out his mistake.
On the other hand, I think it most likely that his statement last Saturday (June 28) was motivated by posting on this blog, whether directly or indirectly.
As far as your response to Kirrily, you're missing the point. Perhaps even though you thought the Great Tribulation was imminent with unprecedented suffering, you would still bring a defenseless infant into the world to suffer through it.
And no, I don't think that you're Citizen X. A simple examination of writing styles shows that.
WO...
i wondered if you were x because you said you beleived rw was false, then repented and now are giving him a chance. Yet, you still claim to be sitting on the fence in regards to rw.
that is all...
I find it interesting this comment about the new america...where can I read more about that "plan". Because it does seem like there is something working in the background of current administration to totally reconstruct our country with complete disregard for our Constitution.
"As for the tithing, it was commanded in the bible...."
No it wasn't. Not in the context Armstrong, and current Christian churches today, abuse it.
wo,
ps...the fast as i understood it when it was announced was for the trumpets/thunders to sound more loudly! but now the claim as this is what caused the trumpets/thunders to sound less extreme....
so, what gives?
"Interesting that you should mention "2012". That's one of the top keywords that Weinland buys to send traffic to his website."
True, and this was a Google Ad keyword Weinland was using, even when the Kingdom was supposed to return in 2011.
Deut 18:22, if you're so hung up on the bible, "Weinland Observer"; and don't sing us that swan song of you not being a member; you wouldn't be defending Weinland so vociferously, if you weren't either on the candidate list for baptism, or trying to get in.
"If this thing somehow plays out all the way to 2012, I fear that some very bad things are going to happen in the COG-PKG."
We were saying that last year, prior to Pentecost (June 8, 2008). Thing is, nothing happened then (or at Passover either), and if Weinland really was drinking his own Kool-Aid, those would have been the two watershed moments to do it.
Since nothing happened, however, Weinland clearly demonstrates by this that he does NOT believe his own BS, and is only stringing the members along so he and the missus can recoup a little retirement money, since they forfeited the good pension of UCG.
Notably, this isn't the first time Weinland has made a money grab.
WO,
You did miss the point.
Seems to me RW is just one of your end time hobbies.
Enjoy.
Todd, Project For the New America info can be found at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm
As for the fast, it was to delay the trumpets but to increase the thunders, but they could only be delayed within what God allowed in the Bible. This was done in order for more people to be saved, a tenth from each third instead of 1 third as Weinland stated this could technically work out. Trust me, that turned me on when I first heard it. I could except truth 50 but not a fast to delay events. Later on understood how this was possible and recalled the fast Jonah did to allow prophesies to occur but later on. I would have realized earlier but I had closed my mind to it. When time, times, and half a time were mentioned that's where my theory on what the fast did came up. We'll have to wait until Last Great Day to find out for sure and Weinland will explain more on what is to happen.
As for being baptized, I'de love to but it's not possible for certain reasons, not huge huge reason and only a couple of circumstances but one that I don't need to post here. I can't give too much personal info on an online forum but I am perfectly safe and well so none of that kind of speculation please. P.S. It would be nice if Weinland did not delete announcements from sermons. That's where he basically gives a bit of a prophetic blurb each week. Maybe that's what people who will eventually repent will listen to at first, perhaps?
thanks for the info for the new america.
as for my belief in RW...i am completely convinced he is a fraud and he could say nothing to change my mind on that.
The scriptures back up my position on that. deut 18:22 and 1 john 2:27
he has been tested and proven false.
I do believe we are in the end times but scripture repeatedly warns us against the likes of RW.
"Clearly the second phase of the fifth thunder sounded last week..."
Another example of why WO does not have a clear understanding of Weinland or his prophecies.
Remember WO - you wanted examples.
"It was a dissapointment to hear Ron say that he now believes that he won't get his Two Witness Powers until after the 5th Trumpet. Where's the fun in that?"
Dill Weed,
It's not biblical either!
WO:
Thank you for reminding me of the 2-day fast at the end of January. It's now 5 months later. Please explain how the thunders have increased since Feb 1. Particularly, how have they increased to humble the modern-day nations of Israel?
"Concerning the end time Jesus says watch therefor and pray always, not watch therefor and let the endtime deter you from living. Not going to college because of impending tribulation is no excuse. "
WO - Did you listen to this past week’s sermon, where Weinland said that he was upset with himself for purchasing several things that he wished that he would not have purchased? Weinland did just the opposite of what you just wrote. He even claimed that he got all caught up in end-time dates, and that he made purchases, that he now regrets. Ron has made a claim that he purchased items – thinking that he didn’t have to pay them back. What kind of example is this for desiring to knowingly steal and take advantage, because you are God’s end-time witness, and know that you will not have to pay it back? So, Weinland is taking advantage of the times that we live in, and stealing from others, with no intention of paying for the merchandise that he received. Is this man of God (self-proclaimed) worthy to be your leader? Just another reason why 1+1 doesn’t equal 4!
Mike, the thunders as follows. Tentions between nations particularly with North Korea in which a US inspection on their of ships could start a war, obvious weather trends, hurricanes to come along with the various fires and tornadoes in Eastern USA, the continued economic Chrysis, Swine Flue, let's not include Michael Jackson as similarities have occurred in the past, Ron speaking at ideacity, and increasing baptisims which will probably be announced in numbers on Last Great Day as they were last year and growth rate of 300% was announced. An example of each thunder has been given here.
Todd, I wish you the best understandign Project For New American Century. The website in which iti is on, information clearigng house is an eye opener.
Weinland Observer,
Does Ron really give prophetic blurbs during announcements (that are not in the downloads)?
The only reason I listen is for 'prophetic updates.' :/
In my experience, he sprinkles 'prophetic updates' in his sermons. Like his latest gem that he doesn't expect to receive Two Witness powers until after the 5th Trumpet.
With respect to the fast changing things... Ron said in his online post "Due to the special fast held by God’s Church in January this year, some prophetic events have been SHIFTED WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of the fulfillment of “time, times, and half a time.”
So... the timeline is unchanged - the 3 1/2 period has NOT been backed up. He's still committed to the timeline he set and time is running out. Tick Tock.
The longer he stays committed to the timeline, the more focused his followers become on the coming End. With the failure of the 2nd Trumpet to materialize - Ron's shirt collar becomes a little tighter. (Heh-heh)
Redefining 'a time, times, and half a time' may be a sneaky attempt to change the timeline (though I am at a loss to explain how). Ron is hedged in with a 1260 day (snicker) ministry and a 3 1/2 year time period that he has re-committed himself to.
At some point, he is going to have to change it. The longer he delays the more committed he becomes to the current timeline (as his believers), but the longer the delay, the more difficult it will be to explain away the old timeline and to introduce a new one.
If he changes it again, there is no doubt he is an outright religous con man, not a sincere, but deluded individual.
How could he go on believing he was God's prophet after so many failed predictions? There is no way. Any claims to continued prophethood will be put to the lie by so many failed prediction and unsubstantiated claims. I believe he'll have less credibility that Ted Haggard.
Anyways, I'm watching this with glee.
Dill Weed
"As for being baptized, I'de love to but it's not possible for certain reasons, not huge huge reason and only a couple of circumstances but one that I don't need to post here. I can't give too much personal info on an online forum but I am perfectly safe and well so none of that kind of speculation please."
Ah. Either you have already been baptized in the name of "Jesus Christ," so you don't believe that you have to be baptized again. Or, you have rejected "Jesus Christ" and his way - thus committing the unpardonable sin, but I don't believe this is true, because of your defense for Weinland. But, on the otherhand, it might just be true and it is speculative. Why make us ponder such things - it would have been better not to have set us up for questioning, why you would or would not get baptized with Weinland's organization or any other organization. I am not clear on one thing. Were you apart of WGO or its scattered organizations and were you baptized in one of these organizations? Weinland would claim that if you were baptized in another organization that is not affiliated with the WCG, then you would require another baptism in the name of "Jesus Christ," because baptisms in many other organizations do not baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Why did you point this information out to us, if you didn't want to discuss it? Yes, were interested. An explanation would be comforting.
Todd,
A good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
and, of course, a google search of the same.
Dill Weed
WO:
You have given examples of 6 of the thunders (nothing included about the 2nd thunder). But nothing of what you've cited reflects an increase in the thunders -- just the normal background rumble.
Remember, these thunders were to intensify to humble modern-day Israel. Five months after the fast and nothing approaching that happening.
As far as the 6th thunder, just because the audience sat quietly instead of throwing rotten tomatoes at him does not mean that they recognized him as one of the Two Witnesses. The tweets I copied on my previous post indicate the opposite.
Tom, I'll answer without giving too much detail in fact list form.
1. I am aware of baptism requirements and that the only valid and true recieving of God's spirit is by god's minister in the true church, either cog-pkg now or WCG pre-apostacy era.
2. I was never part of WCG, wasn't very old at the time for thatmatter.
3. Never was baptized anywhere and was never a Traditional Christian by any measure and believed as truth love towards God and neighbour.
4. I began understanding the truth in late 2007.
5. I would love Baptism.
6 Factors of not being able to be baptized include various ages dependeng on what legal age is where one lives, location and difficulty travelling to it for any reason financial or otherwise, or both.
Now you see my reason-reasons to be legit.
"Factors of not being able to be baptized include various ages depending on what legal age is where one lives, location and difficulty travelling to it for any reason financial or otherwise, or both."
I have heard these words before in a sermon. Actually, I have heard many of your statements in sermons. Sometimes I wonder if you are speaking for Weinland. Are the words that you have written in your posts truly yours? Do you believe them?
So, you have consulted Weinland regarding baptism and he has given reasons for not baptizing you at this particular time, such as not of legal age or your inability to fund your way to one of his group meetings. I do have a question, I don't know if it is true, but does Weinland expect payment for baptism? Does he still require some type of fee? It was rumored that he requires 50 dollars and verification that you are paying tithes consistently.
(50 dollars to write out the baptismal papers)
Tom, I did not consult Weinland other then to ask if there was local congregation in my area. Finding there were not and as I said learning other factors in sermons, I knew the answer to baptism. As for requirements, it is simply tithing and keeping the sabbath and clearly it is a sign of God's people and the tithing is also explained. Just so you know I do not just read andl isten but also check the verses mentioned in context and it always makes sence. Do you stil hold that I believe and do not understand Tom?
ok wo,
just got done screening the project for new america...nah...doesn't fit what I see going on in the world.
I see the European Union working through the UN to strong arm america into doing things their way....the current administration seems happy to ablige.
But that is really off topic for this forum.
sorry guys!
"Do you stil hold that I believe and do not understand Tom?"
So, you don't see any red flags to slow down.
It is your belief that Weinland used poor judgment in purchasing items that he should not have bought when he knew that in his heart that he would never have to pay for these items. At least that is what he thought when he established his 1st timeline. Now, he claims regret and confirms that it was a mistake, because other followers had done the same. This is not poor judgment, he knew what he was doing intentionally, and he informed others to do the same. Ron acted intentionally and gave misinformation that affected the life and wellbeing of others financially and emotionally. Ron even mentioned in a sermon that he took out a loan and gave to HWA during the 1975 in prophecy, only to find out later that he had to pay back the loan. Ron should have learned from his mistakes. Even though in sermons, Ron told his followers not to max out credit cards or get loans, they did anyway, because they were adamant that the end was upon us. They believed that the “words” of Ron were gospel and some did not heed his advice, but borrowed and gave beyond their means. If Weinland truly believed that his followers should not have borrowed or given significant sums of money, then he should have questioned and rejected such amounts which were given from his followers. Weinland played the game of filling his church bank accounts with confirmation that God must want the church to have such funds, even at the expense of his followers. Weinland knew when a church member gave a sum that was extraordinary based on past amounts given, and should have used better judgment and rejected that amount, knowing full well that it was borrowed.
Weinland makes the claim that the majority of church followers have financial hardship, but that was never God‘s intent. Weinland created some of this financial burden for his followers by the “words” that he used in his sermons that stirred up a sense of urgency that the end is near. As a result, people added to their own financial burdens, by acting on their emotions and not their brains, by giving sums of money that was beyond their means. Any man who claims to be of God, and money is at the forefront, should be questioned and you should be asking questions. Is Weinland really a representative of God? Don’t mistake humility for a good sales person!!!
Tom,
You are reading waaay too much into Ron's simple statement about the way he spent a little money. Perhaps he just means that the purchases could have waited and the money could have been better spent in other ways. Why on Earth do you extrapolate to find admission to theft, deception, and worse? If he didn't plan on paying for everything, why would he care what he bought? In your over exuberance to disqualify Ron as God's prophet and to paint him as some sinister madman, you make some very irrational statements. (You are not alone in this habit either) Please just stick to the facts.
"The longer he stays committed to the timeline, the more focused his followers become on the coming End. With the failure of the 2nd Trumpet to materialize - Ron's shirt collar becomes a little tighter. (Heh-heh)"
Failure of the 2nd trumpet? I'm still confused about where the 1st trumpet went and if it is not ever supposed to actually appear like Rons book stated?
GFW 2008
"The First Trumpet blast will occur quickly after the Seventh Seal of Revelation is opened"
"When we are told that a third of all plant life will be destroyed,
that is exactly what it means."
We are 14 months or 6 months beyond the 7th seal, depending on 3which opening you think is correct, and no 1/3 of grass & trees are gone (or even touched at all...). This is supposed to happen quickly and where is the "exactly what it means"?
No 1st trumpet.
The trumpets are at least written down in the bible, the thunders are all made up in Rons mind (no documentation from the bible).
Finally, Rons whole point in GFW 2008 was that the evidence that he was a prophet and a witness was that those things he prophecied would come true EXACTLY as he spoke them. None did. Some not at all, some minor partial possible parts of some sorta did - mostly did not. But none came true EXACTLY, not a thunder and not a trumpet and not one prophecy in or outside the book. Not a one. I means honestly, if you make up prophecy concerning bad weather or famous people dieing of course your gonna be slightly right over time, weather gets nasty and people die, these are facts of life, physiscal laws. Heck I can predict that, it's easy. But predecting that the USA will not have another president is a show stopper, gets people's attention because it's so very specific and does not have a precident. But when it does not happen it kinda throws egg on the face of the person whom predicted it, know what I mean?
What an abysmal track record..
The life of the false prophet is a busy one is it not?
Agreed, Whisper.
Ron 'spiritualized' away the 1st Trumpet saying, well..., it occurred 'spiritually' and therefore no real grass or trees were hurt when it sounded.
So... we're waiting on the 2nd Trumpet. (Note: I just play along with Ron just for fun!) He has asked members how long they would wait for the 2nd Trumpet, 1 year, 2 years?
Ron says to be joyful that it is delaying, but maintains we're still in the 3 1/2 yrs. So he is committed to it being a physical event (unless God tells him otherwise. Stay tuned!)
BUT, there's a a bunch of other stuff that has to happen also. So how long can the 2nd Trumpet delay before members start doubting or before Ron has to change the timeline again? (That will be a difficult task.)
Could Ron pull the equivalent of a religous Madoff and get away with it?
Dill Weed
Re: "Time, times & half a time" - this situation reminds me of what Ronald Weinland said in a sermon in NY @ beginning of March 2008 - He preached (prophesied) re: the 1/2 hour silence mentioned in Book of Revelation was a 30 day period from mid-March to mid-April 2008, when the remainder of "the remnant" would be awakened from their spiritual sleep/Laodicaen state - That was a specific prophecy, but it never happened. Since that timeline didn't come to fruition, he has created another timeline.
I believe that Ronald is doing the same thing again - this time with another phrase of prophecy, that being 'time, times & half times'. I have observed this is one of Ronald's techniques - to put a statement, prophecy, or prediction out there without any specifics. It is like a dangling carrot for the masses to begin to speculate and fill in the blanks for themselves (the spiritual eyes to see stuff). It's like the creation of a "New Truth" - perhaps this will be the 51st?? - and all the drama and suspense being built up by Ronald for the the "Last Great Day" sermon- I see a definite pattern of deceit here.
Purple's comment as follows - "Interesting that you should mention "2012". That's one of the top keywords that Weinland buys to send traffic to his website." True, and this was a Google Ad keyword Weinland was using, even when the Kingdom was supposed to return in 2011."
I'm glad you mentioned this , as I was thinking of responding with a similar comment. I hope the other readers & commenters took note and checked out the link. I will go further to say that I heard Ronald say, more than once, that "2012" and the Mayan calendar was worldly and part of Satan's plan of deception and no part of God's plan. Now that he has created the 2nd timeline culminating in 2012, I wonder how he would explain that one - but, we who have been observing Ronald, for some time now, know that is not his pattern of behaviour.
Thank you, Mike, for continuing the watch on Ronald Weinland.
RW is continues to try to draw attention to himself. I rarely see him draw attention to Jesus. A true preacher will always teach his flock to follow Christ...not to follow the preacher himself.
With his people focusing on every word he says and does, they do not see the true signs that are happening in the world.
For this reason, I believe his is one of the many Anti-Christs that the bible talks about. (1John chapter 2 is one example of the scripture I am refering to.)
Weinland Observer, you said "As for tithing, it was commanded in the bible, not just by Armstrong. If anyone doesn't agree with it, then they don't agree with the bible".
I would like to challenge you, or Ron Weinland, or ANYBODY IN THE WHOLE WORLD, to show where tithing is commanded in the New Covenant.
And I'll tell you why you have to find it in the New Covenant. Because in the bible (for those who believe it) it says that a Covenant from God is unalterable.
That is, it can't be added to or taken away from. Paul explains this in Gal.3:15-17.
In other words, nobody can take a particular command and say it's part of the Covenant, if that command isn't written in there somewhere. If it's not in there, then it's not part of the Covenant.
And don't point to Matt.23:23.
The Old Testament was in full force during that time and wasn't over with until Christ's death on the cross.
By the way, I posed this question to UCG, where I used to attend, and they couldn't answer. I stand behind this.
And Mike, please don't delete this. I'm not preaching. I just bring this point up about tithing, because, as we all know, tithing is the main thing that people like Ron Weinland care about. And if it can be shown that Christians (for those who believe) are not obligated to tithe, then a big part of Ron Weinland's game falls apart.
And so, this challenge awaits an answer from Weinland Observer, or Ron Weinland, or anybody who thinks they can give one.
This thread has gone on for some time, so I'll allow a brief doctrinal discussion.
However, if we think it would turn into a debate, perhaps it should be moved to another forum. The Two Witnesses forum has a board standing by for doctrinal discussions including one on tithing "Baptism: You Must Tithe" or maybe a new Topic "Tithing: Is it Required".
However, to participate in the forum you must register, a simple validation of your email is required. Might take a bit of time to move people over.
We'll see how the discussion goes, if it gets too doctrinal I may move it over.
As for tithing, it is in the old Testament along with other commandments. In the book of Hebrews it discusses how the Levitical system was done away with. Ron discusses this somewhere in the Mystery Of God sermon series. That's the dellema with Traditional Christianity. When something is convenient, examples from the Old Testament and New Testament are used. When something inconvenient is found in the Old Testament, then it is done away with with, the verse on the fact that no letter would be taken from the law not quoted. Why would God make laws, expect people to follow them, then take the expectation away with human sacrifice. No wonder people are becoming disillutioned with Christianity. The dark Ages are gone. People ask questions, do not find answers, and look for them somewhere else. Thank God I never became so disiluded as I never became dlluded with these kinds of ideas.
Not a biblical scholar, but Hebrews 8 particularly the last verse goes to RKPRRMR's point, ie where is tithing in the new testament?
If Leviticus requires tithing and that's still in effect, then so are all the other laws.
In particular, Weinland should have enforced Lev. 24:16 against Rick Miller instead of fleeing ideaCity. Ron broke one of God's commandments.
wo...did you not read the new testament.
Jesus came because nobody could live the law.
We are no longer under the law.
read the new testament!
Thanks for allowing this, Mike.
I agree, I also want to respect the
parameters of your forum. So I'll answer with just one last thing, real simple.
Notice that Weinland Observer did not answer my challenge/question, which was, "Show us where tithing is commanded in the New Covenant".
He said other things, but did not answer the simple question.
And that is exactly what UCG did when I asked them the same question. Everything BUT a direct, simple answer.
The challenge stands.
RKPDRMR, you have made the assumption that for something to be true, it must be stated in the New Testament. What scripture and verse do you use to prove that. Your argument is based on a faulty premiss. WO actually did correctly address your challenge if you look at it carefully. Perhaps you weren't listening to the answer given UCG either. When the ears are closed, they're closed.
First you have to get RK past this verse:
Hebrews 8:13 " By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."
O.K. I'll try one more time.
It is a fundamental, biblical truth, that when God makes a covenant, He is the one who dictates what the terms are. And nobody else (no man) can add to it or take away from it. So says Gal.3:15-17. There's your scripture and verse, Observer.
If a particular command is not found written somewhere in the Covenant, then it simply isn't part of it. If you want to try and add your own rules to the New Covenant, be my guest. But God says we can't do that.
That's why I say, that for a command to apply to us, it has to be found somewhere in the New Covenant, because the Old is obsolete, and it's the New Covenant that we are under, not the Old. We can't take Old Covenant commands and apply them to the New, if they are not written in somewhere in the New.
And your wrong, Observer. Weinland Observer nor UCG answered my question. So I'll ask it of you. Where is tithing commanded in the New Covenant?
"growth rate of 300% was announced."
Last year, shortly after the seventh seal opened (the first time), one of the public defectors said the church had about 350 members, worldwide, and had been holding steady at that number, since the 2005 unitarian revelation Feast.
So "300% growth rate" isn't all that much.
To be fair, there was a spike in baptisms around the opening of the seventh seal/beginning of the great tribulation the first time; but Weinland lost most of those marks when nothing he prophesied came to pass.
Even if there is "300% growth rate" (which I highly doubt), I can't see many of them sticking around. Not many of them did, after Timeline One failed. History appears to be repeating itself, as Timeline Two continues to wane......
RKPDRMR: If we apply your reasoning, "Thou shalt have no other God's before me" and "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" (to name two) are obsolete commands because they are not repeated in the New Testament. What has been changed in the New Covenant is the sacrificial system because Jesus' death put an end to it. He is the One and only Passover Lamb. He did not do away with the Law but He fullfilled it.
"I do have a question, I don't know if it is true, but does Weinland expect payment for baptism? Does he still require some type of fee?"
Yes.
Here's the way to understand the verse. Again, with the C word, context. Mike, if I may, the verses here below
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Meaning: God's law was taught but without God's direct intervention in us can help us keep the commandments: this being something I have not experienced yet but something that I know and understand. As you can see with these verses, there will come a time when God's laws will be written in us, basically a part of us. This can only be after one is rezerected with an immortal spirit being in the God Family. This is as Ron says, "Awesome to understand."
Observer, I am curious. Are you in cog-pkg or are you in a similar position that I am in? I think it is good people like you and I are on this forum. We brought the discussion in to it as this had been taken away from the forum for a while. I wish Weinland Witness forum would be more used. Currently it seams to function as an arkive of what was posted in the past.
"As for requirements, it is simply tithing and keeping the sabbath and clearly it is a sign of God's people and the tithing is also explained."
Tithing is also explained here.
WO: Yes, I read the whole chapter. Verse 13 still says what it says.
Observer: The question is about whether tithing is commanded in the new testament. According to this web site, the 10 commandments are repeated in the new testament.
So where is tithing commanded in the new testament?
"If he didn't plan on paying for everything, why would he care what he bought?"
Well, Ronnie cares now because he has come to the realization that he will have to pay it back.
"In your over exuberance to disqualify Ron as God's prophet and to paint him as some sinister madman, you make some very irrational statements."
Observer, I don't need any exuberance in disqualifying Ron, because he does a nice job at that on his own without any help from me or any of us. As far as making some irrational statements - that is in the eye of the beholder, Ron's personal habits and lifestyle speaks volumes for anyone who has ears to hear and eyes to see.
Your issue has to do with not wanting to accept that there is a possibility that Ron has other motives which are indeed self serving and not of God.
Weinland's lifestyle documented here:
Ron's Total Resolve Cruise.
Ron's Total Resolve Refinancing. including pictures of the front and rear of his manse.
Before you trot out the "David Defense", let me point out that David repented deeply.
Ronnie, on the other hand, was totally arrogant when confronted with the $381,000 price of his home.
For another view on tithing, visit the As Bereans Did blog. It has several authors, two of whom have actually met Ron Weinland.
They have a number of posts relating to tithing.
I still haven't gotten an answer to my question, "where do you see tithing commanded in the New Covenant". Observer, and Weinland Observer, you've mentioned a lot of things, but still no answer to that simple question. And anybody reading this forum sees that.
So out of respect for Mikes' rules on this forum, I'll answer it myself, so this won't turn into and endless debate.
The answer is, as most bible students know, there is NOWHERE in the New Covenant where tithing is commanded. And keeping what Paul explains in Gal.3:15-17 in mind, nobody can add what isn't in there. The Covenants, just like the scriptures, can't be altered.
That is forbidden by God. (for those who believe)
The Law written in our hearts? Wouldn't disagree with that. But how much of it? Everything that was commanded of the Israelites?
No. No more than what is in the New Covenant. And that includes idolatry and lying, Observer. That takes care of the two you mentioned.
One more thing. I've got to admit that Herbert, and the ministry in all of the COG splinters, ARE (were) very well versed in the Bible. And that is the puzzling thing. As knowledgeable as they are about the scriptures, I've never heard one mention in any sermon or literature about this fundamental truth. That the covenants can't be altered.
And I've got to say, the only logical reason I can think of for them never mentioning it would be because then people would know they are not obligated to tithe.
They don't seem to care too much about "the flock". But if someone attacks tithing, now THAT'S the kind of "lingo" they understand. THAT's what they DO care about. And it seems like they've done everything they could to hide the truth about it.
1 john 3:20-23
This verse sums it up nicely for me. Love thy brother this is God's commandment.
And in Jesus' own words..there are two commandments that are above everything....no other God before me, and love thy neighbor as thyself.
1John has several nuggets that blast the RW doctrine to pieces.
RW is one of the many anti-Christ's
"One more thing. I've got to admit that Herbert, and the ministry in all of the COG splinters, ARE (were) very well versed in the Bible. And that is the puzzling thing. As knowledgeable as they are about the scriptures, I've never heard one mention in any sermon or literature about this fundamental truth. That the covenants can't be altered."
Do you know why this is so puzzling, because if they told their followers that tithing was not required, then they would lose their lifestyles and retirement benefits? They would have to rely on finding a second job to make their mortgage payment. These ministers would have to live modestly and within their means like everyone else in this world.
"They don't seem to care too much about "the flock". But if someone attacks tithing, now THAT'S the kind of "lingo" they understand. THAT's what they DO care about. And it seems like they've done everything they could to hide the truth about it."
You hit the nail on the head. Count the number of times Weinland talked about tithing, and, if one is not tithing, and then he would ask them to leave because they are stealing from God. It would be an interesting count, even though I do not have the numbers, but he has talked about this subject a number of times, sometimes twice in the same sermon. Money is at the forefront of what makes Ron tick. I wouldn't be surprised that Ron made the statements that he did last week, because (I have a hunch - but can't verify) his followers are not going to the mail box soon enough to send in their tithe checks. I did find it humorous that Weinland was receiving coins like nickels and pennies from some who felt guilty, that they did not have anything larger to send Ron, because of a comment in a sermon a few weeks earlier, that his followers needed to send something, even if it is small. Some took Ron up on the offer.
I doubt most people in Ron's church even understand what Ron is saying around the timelines. They believe him, blindly, and even if he is wrong on some major things, they don't care, because they don't know and don't care about it. They believe they have themselves a real life prophet and that's all that matters to them.
I contend this is exactly the opposite mentality that the Bible teaches discerning Christians to have. But, as with so many other "prophets" who are around now which teach a end-of-world stuff (most who aren't even COG derivatives), they know there's there's always an audience and money to be had in this occupation. There's a sucker born every minute.
Mark, you can't believe something if you don't know how to believe it. If you believe something you think Ron teaches, you don't believe him although you think you do. This is true with all holey books. People believe what they think the books teach but reathere believe an oppinion of what they teach than what is taught. There aren't many who studied and believed all that's in the Bible, or Muslims who study and believe all that's in the quran, and the list goes on. The main reason, they rely on someone else to do that for them and hope they do it right!
Tithing is for God's church. Tithing was in place before a Levitical and sacrificial system was instituted. Abram paid his tithes to Melchizedek. In the book of Hebrews, Jesus Christ is spoken of as being made a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. Jesus Christ is the head of the body of Christ (God's church), so as long as God's church exists, tithing is required for God's church.
Believer: a rather tenuous connection there. Because of this, and because of that, therefore we tithe. No need for an explicit command to tithe.
And somehow PKG is God's true church among all the other Armstrongite church's that believe basically the same thing, except for Ron's pet prophetic theories and his pet theory on the origin of Christ. (Assuming of course, that there has to be one true church and that it has to be an Armstrongite church.)
Kind of like the proof for the 50th "truth". Because it's so many day from this date to another date, and because it's so many days from this other day to this day, therefore the 50th truth.
Just goes to show: the bible is a very versatile book. It can be used to support about any position you want it to.
Since "Jesus is the head of the body (the church) so as long as God's church exists, tithing is required for the church".
Where does Paul (or any other apostle) say that? Nowhere.
Those are your words and your conclusion. Not those of scripture.
And you can't add to scripture what isn't in there.
So what if Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. We don't look into what applied to them, then, to see what applies to us, now. Because it's not quite the same.
We have to look into the New Covenant, not the Old, or anything before it, to see what applies to us, now. And since tithing isn't commanded in the New, to say that we are obligated to do it, is adding something that isn't in there. And adding to a covenant that God has instituted is forbidden.
And our inheritance (as Christians) that is, the better promises of the New Covenant, aren't going to be diminished one bit for not keeping something that isn't in there. We are guaranteed of that, based on the words of the New Covenant.
RKPDRMR,
I didn't expect that you would flat out change your mind and all of a sudden say, wow, how did I miss that one? What I gave as an explanation for why God's church tithes does not give concrete proof, at least in your eyes that is. Did you ever think that's the way God designed it? As a matter of faith? Remember...., without faith, it's impossible to please God. Your conclusions are based on your own interpretations of certain scriptures. Your whole covenant thing is baseless and wrong. But see...., we disagree and we obviously always will.
So you're saying you have no arguments for tithing, it's all based on faith in ... what? -- the word of a man who tells you that tithing is required. And who, by the way, has an upscale house on a golf course, takes expensive cruises, and has opened Swiss bank accounts. All paid for with .... (surprise) tithes. And who has demonstrated that he is not true to his word.
Mike, I gave you my explanation. That still stands. The believing comes from God giving one the ability to "see" it.
RKPDRMR,
You stated, "We have to look into the New Convenant, not the Old, or anything before it, to see what applies to us, now."
According to your own logic, show me where in the New Testament, exactly, where that command is given? Seems to me you are guilty of your own accusations...,that being of adding to scripture.
OK, I see that I've got it, as I said.
And it's God who's made you see? Hmmm.
As far as your question to RK,
Hebrews 8.
Mike,
Hebrews 8? Jesus said himself that He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The law is not obsolete. This has already been covered before in this thread.
Rather interesting that Hebrews 8 is not a scripture that Ron has covered, according to his church website.
He's covered very chapter in Hebrews, except this one. Interesting.
It continues to amaze me when 'Law' automatically means Old Covenant.
In a small town I lived near once, there was an old law that said one could not ride their horse on main street while playing guitar.
They decided to remove that law since it was outdated. Is that confusing to people to go and change a perfectly good law?
I know. That's a man made law and we're talking about God's laws.
Why are people so very attached to the Old Covenant? Is it so terrible if we are no longer under the Old Covenant? Is it so terrible if we are under the New Covenant?
What exactly was meant by 'a veil covers their eyes when Moses is read?'
How is it one could actually believe that if the Old Covenant is no longer in effect that it would mean people are free to sin?
How does being under the New Covenant mean one can sin?
Are we the children who are only happy if we have a stern faced adult standing over us with a ruler, telling us to be good or else, as opposed to the adult who says 'go outside and play nicely with the other children'.
What is the obsession over the Old Covenant? I know... God said it would be a problem... but still... I just don't get it.
If you choose to be under the Old Covenant, you choose to be on your own, because Christ is of no value to you. He died to pay our debt. A free gift. But your debt cannot be paid if you choose the OC, because then it's up to YOU to be perfect (which is impossible) in order to gain salvation... rather than a perfect Christ paying your debt and gifting you salvation.
It baffles and saddens me. Truly.
Men like Ronald Weinland rob people of Christ's gift.
The lie I hate most, of Ron Weinland's false teachings, is that Christ Jesus was created! The Bible says that no God was created... so what gives? That teaching alone discredits RW as belonging to God. It makes him an antichrist.
Why is it so difficult to understand that when Jesus died, the New Covenant came into effect?
I think it's because people still think they have to 'earn' it. They cannot fathom that faith grants you the gift. It's too easy! Right? So, then that leaves 'earning', 'works'.
"Not because of who I am, but because of what You've done. Not because of what I've done, but because of who You are"
~ Casting Crowns - Who Am I
That says it all...
Weinland Observer: I miss the old Weinland Witness Forum as well. There was some good debate but the minds weren't so completely shut. I'm not sure why some church members felt that they had to stop commenting on the forem simply because Citizen X had come to the conclusion that Ron was a false prophet. You came to that conclusion a couple of times but worked through it. If Citizen X keeps his mind open he may do the same.
I used a different name on that forum. I chose Observer for this blog because I have been a "Don't Drink The Flavor Aid" observer for some time now. I began observing it when I realized some family members were reading it and were making assumptions about my beliefs based on what was being said on this blog instead of asking me for the truth. By understanding what they had been told and some of the attitudes behind the information, I was better able to have patience and understanding when it came to their attitudes towards me. Yes I am a member of COG-PKG. I hope you have some friends within the Church that you can keep in touch with by e-mail or on Facebook. It really makes a difference.
Observer, you say our minds are closed. I was open-minded enough to read Ron's book and see what he had prophesied. When I saw that he failed his own test, I declared him to be what he is and has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be -- a false prophet. A certain degree of open-mindedness is good, but not so much that your brains fall out.
You also state that your family is getting incorrect information about your beliefs on my blog. Please tell me, what exactly have I said that's not correct?
Mike,
Most of the misinformation comes from the comments. For example:
1. Ron charges to baptize. Not true.
2. Church members are commanded not to go on anti-Weinland sites. Not true.
3. The fast at the end of January was to ask God to cause more death. Actually it was to save more people.
4. Ron usually sits to give a sermon because he is either drunk or hungover. He likes to stand and he does not get drunk therefore doesn't get hungover.
5. Ron's house is paid for by tithes. Proof??
6. Ron is an overbearing husband and Laura follows him in great fear and trembling. You really don't know Ron or Laura!
7. Along the same line, COG-PKG is a male dominated Church where women are commanded to submit. Actually what Ron has said in his sermons is the most balanced position on husband-wife relationships that I have heard in any church I have attended.
8. Ron is arrogant, spineless, a liar, etc, etc. Not true, not true, not true ...
.... And that's just off the top of my head. There is much more.
Observer, as you said, much of what is said is in the comments and is on the commenter. Here's what I think about each one.
1. Ron charges to baptize. Not true. I do not believe that there is a baptismal fee per se, such as a $50 fee paid just before baptism. However, tithing is a prerequisite.
2. Church members are commanded not to go on anti-Weinland sites. Not true. Agreed that Ron has not stated "thou shalt not". But his suggestions are pretty strong. As I recall, he threatened disfellowshipping for anyone representing the church.
3. The fast at the end of January was to ask God to cause more death. Actually it was to save more people. This one I'll stick with. Members were to pray for more destruction causing more death, perhaps as you say to "save more".
Now that you mention it, how's that working out so far? It's been 5 months now.
4. Ron usually sits to give a sermon because he is either drunk or hungover. He likes to stand and he does not get drunk therefore doesn't get hungover. Now the commenter said that he was hungover one time and decided to sit and liked it. In a recent sermon, he stated that he was sitting. Since the commenter was a PKG member and was there, I tend to believe his assessment that Ron had a bit too much that one time.
5. Ron's house is paid for by tithes. Proof?? Are you saying that Ron has a source of income other than from tithes?
And let's say that it comes out in the IRS investigation that he took church funds for personal expenses without declaring it as income. Not saying that he has, but if he did, what would you call that?
6. Ron is an overbearing husband and Laura follows him in great fear and trembling. You really don't know Ron or Laura! I'll agree with you there. Ron and Laura have some kind of odd symbiosis going on, but I don't think that he abuses her.
7. Along the same line, COG-PKG is a male dominated Church where women are commanded to submit. Actually what Ron has said in his sermons is the most balanced position on husband-wife relationships that I have heard in any church I have attended. Don't recall where that one came from. Nevertheless, women are not allowed to speak in services or be ordained -- except for Laura (special case).
8. Ron is arrogant, spineless, a liar, etc, etc. Not true, not true, not true ... Let's take these one at a time.
Arrogant: I found his response about the $381,000 house arrogant -- he could have spent more.
Spineless: Not generally, particularly when dealing with those over whom he has authority. His flight from ideaCity and the blasphemy of Rick Miller an exception. He should have stayed and done his job.
Liar: That on I'll own. Ron failed to follow through on repeated promises to stop preaching and acknowledge being a false prophet when his prophecies failed.
This is turning into a tithe debate. I agree with Mike. This isn't the place for it. I suggest that Seeker of Truth host a special blog post where people can debate this issue into the next millennium. Sound good? Who's in?
Meanwhile, Mike can get back
to doing what he does best (and what he does here) - debunking Ron Weinland.
------
There are a series of posts on another blog that deal with tithing and answers many questions such as:
"So what if Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek."
[Actually, Abraham paid A tithe, one time, and it was a tenth of the best of war spoils, not a tenth of all the field, flock, and orchard.]
"Tithing is for God's church."
[Oh, is it?]
"Tithing was in place before a Levitical and sacrificial system was instituted."
[Actually, a sacrificial system was from Cane and Abel's time, circumcision was from Abraham's time, and neither of these are required now. But I digress.]
I suggest everyone who believes in Christian tithing read these articles since you may possibly be missing the larger boat of Christian giving.
Observer, thanks for the reply to my message. I do not know anyone from cog-pkg presently. Are there any related facebook groupsout there? If not one should be created by someone, nt a cog-pkg one as thatt would be for someone like Ron to do but for anyone reading andl earning from the website or the books. This was suggested on Weinland Witness forum but it would be nice if it was followed up on. What do you think?
Thanks, xHWA.
The tithing debate is not closed, but DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BIBLICAL CORRECTNESS OF TITHING IS CLOSED ON THIS BLOG.
While the discussion has been civil, it's ended here. xHWA has invited this discussion over to his blog, As Bereans Did, and has created a place for the tithing discussion to continue.
Thanks, xHWA.
BTW, xHWA was a member in Weinland's Church of God (Preparing for the Kingdom of God) at one time.
Weinland Observer
There is a facebook group started by and for COG-PKG members. I don't do facebook so I can't tell you much more about it. I know a couple of people who are on it and say the fellowship is wonderful. There are a dozen or so people that I keep in touch with, some more than others, by e-mail. There are a lot of young (early twenties) people that I have met that it would be great for you to be in contact with but I don't no how to get that information to you. (Don't put your e-mail address on this blog). I know that some were able to get in contact with each other after they "met" on Weinland Witness"
"Ron is arrogant, spineless, a liar, etc, etc. Not true, not true, not true."
Actually, his promise to step down and call himself a false prophet, which he did not, demonstrates that he is a liar, is spineless, and extremely arrogant.
I find that people who follow false prophets like Ron Weinland look for someone who is narcisistic. They like attaching themselves to this personality type.
Observer, it turns out I found a facebook group that sounds like maybe it's not just for baptized members as it was created by someone who isn't baptized. yet. IF they don't except the request, they will at least know about me. It's hard to say much on a forum like this, not safe posting much online. It seams you figured out my age area more or less, maybe off by only a few. How did you manage? Also, any other advice for me from experience? All the best.
Weinland Observer: I've enjoyed reading your comments and am encouraged by the maturity you've shown in your responses. Advice? Keep looking to God for answers, pray for understanding and be patient. In other words: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths. I hope you meet some brothers and sisters in Christ to fellowship with. It can be lonely but you are not alone. I'll be praying for you and, hopefully we will meet at some time in the near future. Take care.
Weinland Observer:
You're welcome to post comments on my blog. However, I'm going to draw the line on using it for various Weinland followers to make personal connections. Sorry.
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